PIP5048MG: 3Phase Configuration: Fault 08 and anomalies.

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TitchRSA
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PIP5048MG: 3Phase Configuration: Fault 08 and anomalies.

Post by TitchRSA »

Hi Forum,

I have 3 x PIP5048MG in parallel configured for 3-phase operation (15kW). P1=Inverter1, P2=Inverter2, P3=Inverter3.

I also have 6 x 4048MS on a separate 3-phase system (24kW).

The 5048MG were recently installed in a warehouse (about 3 weeks ago).
I have heritage 3 x 4.6kW PV arrays - one for each 5048MG inverter. Voltages are above the minimum of 120V required by the 5048MG.
I have 12kWh of LiFePO4 (Lithium Ion) batteries common to all 3 inverters.
The system has utility input connected for bypass and lo-battery options.
The CPU version is 00072.90
U1 is 71.70
Program #01 is set to SOL
Program #5 is set to USE (and the associated battery programs configured according to supplier specs)
Program #16 is set to OSO
Program #25 is enabled (record fault)
Program #31 is enabled (Max input solar power = Max battery charging power + Connected Load power)

At night there is an average usage of around 1.4kWh on the 5048MG system - mainly on P2 and P3 (about 600Wh on each phase).

Query 1: Last night at approximately 20:10 the P3 inverter (5048MG) went into fault #08 (Bus Voltage Too High) and of course all 3 inverters in parallel disconnected from the load. Early this morning I reset all 3 inverters (switched off load, disconnected PV, disconnected battery, disconnected utility input and then started the system up again). As of around 10:00am there is no fault. Can anyone tell me what this #08 fault is in English and whether I should worry about it?

Query 2: How/where do I get the 'recorded fault' implied by program #25 after resetting the inverter - or am I misunderstanding this program setting?

Query 3: When I use the SNMP monitor box with the 5048MG's via WatchPower I can only get the PV input power reading for charging the battery and not that for charging the battery and supplying the load. Any suggestions? The 24kW system SNMP monitor box (the same as the 15kW one) displays the correct PV Input Power (battery and load).


All help greatly appreciated.

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coulomb
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Re: PIP5048MG: 3Phase Configuration: Fault 08 and anomalies.

Post by coulomb »

TitchRSA wrote:
Thu, 23 Jan 2020, 13:59
I have heritage 3 x 4.6kW PV arrays - one for each 5048MG inverter. Voltages are above the minimum of 120V required by the 5048MG.
That's slightly over the maxum PV array size specification of 4500 W. I don't think that this is related to your problem.
The CPU version is 00072.90
U1 is 71.70
? Is the 72.90 the main firmware version for the PIP-4048MSs, and 71.70 the main firmware version for the PIP-5048MGs?
Program #01 is set to SOL
So the inverters switch over to the grid at sundown. Is this what you want?
At night there is an average usage of around 1.4kWh on the 5048MG system - mainly on P2 and P3 (about 600Wh on each phase).
Do you mean an average power of 1.4 kW all night, or a dribble of power that adds up to 1.4 kWh of energy overnight?
Either way, it doesn't seem relevant to this problem, since at night the inverters would be in line mode (I assume with "BYPASS" showing).
Query 1: Last night at approximately 20:10 the P3 inverter (5048MG) went into fault #08 (Bus Voltage Too High) and of course... Can anyone tell me what this #08 fault is in English and whether I should worry about it?
The "bus" is a pair of wires with roughly 400 V between them. It powers the inverter proper (the thing that generates 230 VAC), and is fed from either the PV boost converter, or the DC-DC converter connected to the battery. When the battery is charging, this battery DC-DC converter operates in reverse, pulling power from the bus and pushing it into the battery. The inverter proper can also operate in reverse, so that AC-in can push power to the DC bus, which is then pushed into the battery. Your inverter has the following block diagram, with the green part but not the blue or red parts; the bus in question is marked "DC bus":

Presumed block diagram.png
Presumed block diagram.png (17.54 KiB) Viewed 592 times
With all these converters pushing into and pulling out of the DC bus, management of the DC bus voltage is important. The bus voltage mustn't be allowed to go too high, since the DC bus has 500 V rated capacitors, and the IGBTs in the inverter proper and on the bus side of the battery DC-DC converter could fail catastrophically (big bang) with too high a voltage. So the inverter measures the bus voltage, tries to keep it within reasonable bounds, and stops with fault code 08 (error 08) if it exceeds about 500 V for a certain length of time.

Others have experienced this problem with PIP-5048MGs (also called Axpert MKS IIs). For example, this post. Unfortunately, the original poster did not answer my question about what firmware version he was running. Factory firmware version 71.71 is supposed to fix a problem with PV power dropping to zero for minutes or sometimes overnight; it might be worth trying version 71.71 to see if it helps. There is a link in this post. There is also a link in the index of the PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC) topic.
Query 2: How/where do I get the 'recorded fault' implied by program #25 after resetting the inverter - or am I misunderstanding this program setting?
I believe that there is an undocumented command for accessing this information. I don't use WatchPower myself, but I think it can be accessed from there.
Query 3: When I use the SNMP monitor box with the 5048MG's via WatchPower I can only get the PV input power reading for charging the battery and not that for charging the battery and supplying the load. Any suggestions? The 24kW system SNMP monitor box (the same as the 15kW one) displays the correct PV Input Power (battery and load).
Sorry, no idea on that one. Perhaps other owners could help here.

Edit: it seems to me that this information has to come from the QPGS command (when there are paralleled and/or 3-phase machines), and at least the "PV input current for battery" entry seems to come from the same place as it does for the PIP-4048MS firmwares, which is total PV output current (I assume that this on the battery side, after the battery DC-DC). This would be multiplied by battery voltage to come up with total PV power. At least, that's how it is in 71.71; I don't have access to other PIP-5048MG firmware.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP5048MG: 3Phase Configuration: Fault 08 and anomalies.

Post by dRdoS7 »

Hi,
coulomb wrote:
Thu, 23 Jan 2020, 18:34
Query 1: Last night at approximately 20:10 the P3 inverter (5048MG) went into fault #08 (Bus Voltage Too High) and of course... Can anyone tell me what this #08 fault is in English and whether I should worry about it?
The "bus" is a pair of wires with roughly 400 V between them...

So the inverter measures the bus voltage, tries to keep it within reasonable bounds, and stops with fault code 08 (error 08) if it exceeds about 500 V for a certain length of time.

Others have experienced this problem with PIP-5048MGs (also called Axpert MKS IIs). For example, this post. Unfortunately, the original poster did not answer my question about what firmware version he was running. Factory firmware version 71.71 is supposed to fix a problem with PV power dropping to zero for minutes or sometimes overnight; it might be worth trying version 71.71 to see if it helps
I have a PIP5048MG, FW: 71.20, and it too has had Error #8.

Started getting the error a few months after installing.

I emailed MPP, many back and forth, they asked for a lot of logs, etc., but nothing else. Gave it the mirror treatment.

I thought they would send a replacement board, as that's what the manual says to do for that error.

It hasn't happened for the last 6 months.

It was very annoying at the time, esp. if we weren't home, as the MG doesn't have a proper bypass a fault means no output. I installed a bypass relay, now at least a fault doesn't mean no power (unless the grid is down, or I've f**ked up, or the relay fails, or "D": All of the above. :lol: ).

dRdoS7

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Re: PIP5048MG: 3Phase Configuration: Fault 08 and anomalies.

Post by TitchRSA »

Thanks,@coulomb

Very useful information.
? Is the 72.90 the main firmware version for the PIP-4048MSs, and 71.70 the main firmware version for the PIP-5048MGs?
The 72.90 is the 5048MG cpu version.

Program #01 is set to SOL
So the inverters switch over to the grid at sundown. Is this what you want?
Not quite - we us batteries at night - most times. However there has been a lot of rain the past two days so the units will run on mains at night if the battery bank hasn't reached a decent charge during the day. Low power consumption so not a major issue - unless too regular.

At night there is an average usage of around 1.4kWh on the 5048MG system - mainly on P2 and P3 (about 600Wh on each phase).
Do you mean an average power of 1.4 kW all night, or a dribble of power that adds up to 1.4 kWh of energy overnight?
Either way, it doesn't seem relevant to this problem, since at night the inverters would be in line mode (I assume with "BYPASS" showing).
Average 1.4kWh (per hour). The inverters were in line-mode because the batteries had got low during the day and unfortunately were not sufficiently charged at day end by PV for the inverters to go back to battery mode. We only allow solar to charge batteries.
The "bus" is a pair of wires with roughly 400 V between them. It powers the inverter proper (the thing that generates 230 VAC), and is fed from either the PV boost converter, or the DC-DC converter connected to the battery. When the battery is charging, this battery DC-DC converter operates in reverse, pulling power from the bus and pushing it into the battery. The inverter proper can also operate in reverse, so that AC-in can push power to the DC bus, which is then pushed into the battery. Your inverter has the following block diagram, with the green part but not the blue or red parts; the bus in question is marked "DC bus":
Great - that gives me some clarity. So being on line-mode at night what do you think would have caused this voltage. Could a utility spike, surge or lightning contribute to the problem?
With all these converters pushing into and pulling out of the DC bus, management of the DC bus voltage is important. The bus voltage mustn't be allowed to go too high, since the DC bus has 500 V rated capacitors, and the IGBTs in the inverter proper and on the bus side of the battery DC-DC converter could fail catastrophically (big bang) with too high a voltage. So the inverter measures the bus voltage, tries to keep it within reasonable bounds, and stops with fault code 08 (error 08) if it exceeds about 500 V for a certain length of time.
What length of time is this likely to be?
Others have experienced this problem with PIP-5048MGs (also called Axpert MKS IIs). For example, this post. Unfortunately, the original poster did not answer my question about what firmware version he was running. Factory firmware version 71.71 is supposed to fix a problem with PV power dropping to zero for minutes or sometimes overnight; it might be worth trying version 71.71 to see if it helps. There is a link in this post. There is also a link in the index of the PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC) topic.
Thanks. Customer is a bit reluctant to 'flash'. Am working on him.

Query 2: How/where do I get the 'recorded fault' implied by program #25 after resetting the inverter - or am I misunderstanding this program setting?
I believe that there is an undocumented command for accessing this information. I don't use WatchPower myself, but I think it can be accessed from there.
You can get the faults while the inverter is running but not once reset - which would be helpful in the event of an inverter shutdown. What program have you used to monitor these units?

Query 3: When I use the SNMP monitor box with the 5048MG's via WatchPower I can only get the PV input power reading for charging the battery and not that for charging the battery and supplying the load. Any suggestions? The 24kW system SNMP monitor box (the same as the 15kW one) displays the correct PV Input Power (battery and load).
Edit: it seems to me that this information has to come from the QPGS command (when there are paralleled and/or 3-phase machines), and at least the "PV input current for battery" entry seems to come from the same place as it does for the PIP-4048MS firmwares, which is total PV output current (I assume that this on the battery side, after the battery DC-DC). This would be multiplied by battery voltage to come up with total PV power. At least, that's how it is in 71.71; I don't have access to other PIP-5048MG firmware.
Odd - with a recent order of 5048MG we got a different looking box. Maybe that has the fix?

Thanks a lot for your help.

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Re: PIP5048MG: 3Phase Configuration: Fault 08 and anomalies.

Post by TitchRSA »

Hi @dRdoS7
I have a PIP5048MG, FW: 71.20, and it too has had Error #8.

Started getting the error a few months after installing.

I emailed MPP, many back and forth, they asked for a lot of logs, etc., but nothing else. Gave it the mirror treatment.

I thought they would send a replacement board, as that's what the manual says to do for that error.

It hasn't happened for the last 6 months.
Mnnn - I am waiting for responses from MPP on many queries - some from over a year ago. So much for their 3-day response promise.
It was very annoying at the time, esp. if we weren't home, as the MG doesn't have a proper bypass a fault means no output. I installed a bypass relay, now at least a fault doesn't mean no power (unless the grid is down, or I've 'messed' up, or the relay fails, or "D": All of the above. :lol: ).
Unfortunately this is in a 3-phase working environment with a LOT of IT. Although there is multiple backup for servers, the lights and computers go out when this happens (Computers have a 1hr UPS). I could have a power senses and switch to utility when this happens BUT I expect the inverters to perform rather than workarounds.

Thanks for the response.

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Re: PIP5048MG: 3Phase Configuration: Fault 08 and anomalies.

Post by coulomb »

TitchRSA wrote:
Fri, 24 Jan 2020, 19:52
The 72.90 is the 5048MG cpu version.
? You said "U1 is 71.70"... so then what is displayed alongside 72.90? To me, the "CPU version" is the U1 value.
Not quite - we us batteries at night - most times. However there has been a lot of rain the past two days...
Ah. Setting 1 is SOL only the last few days? And you use something else normally?
Average 1.4kWh (per hour).
Ah. Then 1.4 kW. The "hours" cancel out.
So being on line-mode at night what do you think would have caused this voltage. Could a utility spike, surge or lightning contribute to the problem?
Since you never use utility charging, that means that when in line mode, the inverter proper is doing nothing. So AC-in just connects to AC-out. I believe that in this condition, the inverter's output is disconnected from the AC-out (= AC-in in this mode). Formally, the load inverter is off. That means that there is no connection from AC-out (and hence AC-in) to the bus, even via the free-wheeling diodes in the IGBTs. So I can't see how a spike could get through to cause trouble, unless it was big enough to jump the relay contacts. But then it would be big enough to cause permanent damage.

In short: I don't know what's causing the error 08.
... and stops with fault code 08 (error 08) if it exceeds about 500 V for a certain length of time.
What length of time is this likely to be?
Less than a second, without looking it up.
You can get the faults while the inverter is running but not once reset - which would be helpful in the event of an inverter shutdown.
Oh.
What program have you used to monitor these units?
It's a custom Node Red program written by Weber. But we've not had the need to extract the fault records so far, so we haven't put that in as yet.
Odd - with a recent order of 5048MG we got a different looking box. Maybe that has the fix?
I guess it's possible.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP5048MG: 3Phase Configuration: Fault 08 and anomalies.

Post by TitchRSA »

Hi @coulomb
The 72.90 is the 5048MG cpu version.
? You said "U1 is 71.70"... so then what is displayed alongside 72.90? To me, the "CPU version" is the U1 value.
U1 on the inverter is 71.70 - when I use WatchPower it gives me a CPU version of 72.90. With the 4048 I can see U1 and U2 on the inverter but only U1 on the 5048MG.
Not quite - we us batteries at night - most times. However there has been a lot of rain the past two days...
Ah. Setting 1 is SOL only the last few days? And you use something else normally?
Yes - setting 1 is SOL. I started the system with setting 1 at SBU but a decision was made to not use Utility to charge batteries so I set the inverters to SOL.
Average 1.4kWh (per hour)
Ah. Then 1.4 kW. The "hours" cancel out.
Yep - I often quote kWh and then clarify with 'per hour' in brackets.
So being on line-mode at night what do you think would have caused this voltage. Could a utility spike, surge or lightning contribute to the problem?
Since you never use utility charging, that means that when in line mode, the inverter proper is doing nothing. So AC-in just connects to AC-out. I believe that in this condition, the inverter's output is disconnected from the AC-out (= AC-in in this mode). Formally, the load inverter is off. That means that there is no connection from AC-out (and hence AC-in) to the bus, even via the free-wheeling diodes in the IGBTs. So I can't see how a spike could get through to cause trouble, unless it was big enough to jump the relay contacts. But then it would be big enough to cause permanent damage.

In short: I don't know what's causing the error 08.
I have a 3 phase voltage monitor and that hasn't reported any significant over or under voltage. I agree that the spikes/surges would not be that huge. Last year there was a fault on the Utility provider 3 phase - that might well have come back. I will need to check. The odd thing is that fault #08 only happens at night when there is the 1.4kW constant load. I also need to check setting #08 (Output voltage). Domestic single phase supply is 230V but we are using 3 phase to generate the input voltage (1 phase per inverter) as the inverters are set for 3 phase output. From the monitored data over 4 days these are the recorded INPUT voltages;
P1: Av-221 Max-232 Min-205
P2: Av-221 Max-235 Min-199
P2: Av-230 Max-242 Min-209 Hmmmnnn - something odd here. Not sure where the differential comes from and will have to do some investigation with utility supplier and operational setup. This is the inverter that goes into fault #08.
... and stops with fault code 08 (error 08) if it exceeds about 500 V for a certain length of time.
What length of time is this likely to be?
Less than a second, without looking it up.
That's fine - just wanted to get an idea.
What program have you used to monitor these units?
It's a custom Node Red program written by Weber. But we've not had the need to extract the fault records so far, so we haven't put that in as yet.
Is there a chance I can get this? The WatchPower program keeps losing comms. The SNMP boxes work fine but it seems when internet is being used that WatchPower loses comms (we have two boxes being monitored).
Odd - with a recent order of 5048MG we got a different looking box. Maybe that has the fix?
I guess it's possible.
I will let you know. The new box comes with the need for an external 12V supply (pin type) whereas the old one could be supplied by USB using an MPP provided cable.

Chat soon.

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Re: PIP5048MG: 3Phase Configuration: Fault 08 and anomalies.

Post by TitchRSA »

Hi @coulomb
Not quite - we us batteries at night - most times. However there has been a lot of rain the past two days...
Ah. Setting 1 is SOL only the last few days? And you use something else normally?
Yes - setting 1 is SOL. I started the system with setting 1 at SBU but a decision was made to not use Utility to charge batteries so I set the inverters to SOL.
Erm - I need to correct the above - the inverters were on SBU - I changed to SOL over the weekend and the error has not come back - which makes sense. Only issue now is that Utility will be used more often - but liveable. I'll check with MPP if we can get the unit changed as these inverters were bought recently.

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Re: PIP5048MG: 3Phase Configuration: Fault 08 and anomalies.

Post by TitchRSA »

Hi @coulomb @weber
coulomb wrote:The "bus" is a pair of wires with roughly 400 V between them. It powers the inverter proper (the thing that generates 230 VAC), and is fed from either the PV boost converter, or the DC-DC converter connected to the battery. When the battery is charging, this battery DC-DC converter operates in reverse, pulling power from the bus and pushing it into the battery. The inverter proper can also operate in reverse, so that AC-in can push power to the DC bus, which is then pushed into the battery. Your inverter has the following block diagram, with the green part but not the blue or red parts; the bus in question is marked "DC bus":

With all these converters pushing into and pulling out of the DC bus, management of the DC bus voltage is important. The bus voltage mustn't be allowed to go too high, since the DC bus has 500 V rated capacitors, and the IGBTs in the inverter proper and on the bus side of the battery DC-DC converter could fail catastrophically (big bang) with too high a voltage. So the inverter measures the bus voltage, tries to keep it within reasonable bounds, and stops with fault code 08 (error 08) if it exceeds about 500 V for a certain length of time.

Others have experienced this problem with PIP-5048MGs (also called Axpert MKS IIs). For example, this post. Unfortunately, the original poster did not answer my question about what firmware version he was running. Factory firmware version 71.71 is supposed to fix a problem with PV power dropping to zero for minutes or sometimes overnight; it might be worth trying version 71.71 to see if it helps. There is a link in this post. There is also a link in the index of the PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC) topic.
OK - this error 08 is only happening at night and not always. After resetting on Friday morning the inverter ran for 2 nights without a hitch.
This morning the fault 08 was there but there was no monitoring over the weekend so I can't establish circumstances.
Yesterday afternoon there was a lot of rain so the batteries were probably on the lo side before loads switched to utility after light.
However the MIN battery voltage on the Victron monitor (which I also reset on Friday) showed 50.29V, so it doesn't look like any issue with battery capacity overnight - plenty still.

As there is no PV at night and the loads are using utility (SOL) I am assuming the DC-DC converter creating the bus voltage is the one connected from battery to bus.
I had OSO set so the AC-DC converters should be 'idle' and not affecting the bus?

If you can shed some more light I would be most grateful but in the meantime I will try a few settings.

Last nights program settings:
#1 SOL
#12 48 Lo Battery to Utility
#13 56 Hi Battery back to Battery
#16 OSO
#30 ONE
CPU version: 71.70

Average load on the faulty inverter is around 650W per hour. Another inverter has the same and it is fine.

Here is what I am planning to do over the next few nights;

Change #16 to CSO (faulty inverter only) - maybe charging the battery will bring the bus down? (Max charge current is 40A so will take a while to charge bank with just the one inverter).

if that doesn't work
Leave #16 on CSO (faulty inverter only)
Change #30 to ALL - hopefully that will switch to Utility before too much battery is used so there isn't too much load on the faulty inverter?

if that doesn't work
Leave #16 on CSO (faulty inverter only)
Set #30 back to ONE
Change #1 to SbU - and hope that by leaving the Utility as a last resort for the loads (and having CSO) the bus will stay loaded.

If that doesn't work
Throw these inverters out or try Flashing them with 71.71 (currently on 71.70)

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Re: PIP5048MG: 3Phase Configuration: Fault 08 and anomalies.

Post by Revlac »

I have encountered Error 08 on an old 4048HS unit I have running in the shed for power tools, Error 08 would appear when I used a heatgun on low setting, the inverter would disconnect the load (the internal relay would click) and then reconnect after 10 or 15 seconds and run normal again.
The Bus Voltage Too High was caused by the half wave rectifier diode in the low speed setting on the heatgun as I understand it.
Different inverter but looks like the same Error.

Possibly some load connected to the line on that inverter p3.
Not sure if this is of any help.

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Re: PIP5048MG: 3Phase Configuration: Fault 08 and anomalies.

Post by weber »

That's great information @Revlac.

@TitchRSA, You could try swapping inverters between phases, to see if the problem stays with the same phase or the same inverter.
coulomb wrote:
Thu, 23 Jan 2020, 18:34
Others have experienced this problem with PIP-5048MGs (also called Axpert MKS IIs). For example, this post. Unfortunately, the original poster did not answer my question about what firmware version he was running. Factory firmware version 71.71 is supposed to fix a problem with PV power dropping to zero for minutes or sometimes overnight; it might be worth trying version 71.71 to see if it helps.
The original poster says in their very first post, that they are running 71.71. So there's no point in trying that.

A recent post in that South African topic claims that replacing the main board fixes the problem.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

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Re: PIP5048MG: 3Phase Configuration: Fault 08 and anomalies.

Post by coulomb »

TitchRSA wrote:
Mon, 03 Feb 2020, 18:58
As there is no PV at night and the loads are using utility (SOL) I am assuming the DC-DC converter creating the bus voltage is the one connected from battery to bus.
If the battery voltage is high enough, yes. Otherwise, the free-wheeling diodes in the inverter may set the bus voltage (if the inverter is connected, e.g. there is no inverter relay present). If there is no battery and the inverter is not connected, I guess nothing charges the bus at all. It may be allowed to fall to near zero with no fault condition.
I had OSO set so the AC-DC converters should be 'idle' and not affecting the bus?
If your model has 4 relays, then I believe so, yes. If it has only 3, it depends on whether the missing relay is the inverter relay or the output relay (or perhaps the neutral AC-in relay).

[ Added "I believe so". I'm not totally sure. ]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP5048MG: 3Phase Configuration: Fault 08 and anomalies.

Post by TitchRSA »

Hi @Revlac

Thanks for the response.
I have encountered Error 08 on an old 4048HS unit I have running in the shed for power tools, Error 08 would appear when I used a heatgun on low setting, the inverter would disconnect the load (the internal relay would click) and then reconnect after 10 or 15 seconds and run normal again.
The Bus Voltage Too High was caused by the half wave rectifier diode in the low speed setting on the heatgun as I understand it.
Different inverter but looks like the same Error.
During the night we only have the server room equipment on this inverter. It runs at around 650W per hour. I haven't seen significant changes using WatchPower data - but then that only provides a sample every 30 seconds - so who knows what happens in between readings.

During the day we have aircons and electrical sockets for office PC's, UPS and arb office equipment on this phase - including some lights - and I do not get this fault 08.

When I get the problem all 3 inverters (in parallel 3-phase) disconnect loads and that's it - the inverters have to be reset and the problem goes away - until the night-time gremlin decides to play.

Last night I changed the 'faulty inverter' program #16 to CSO - to allow a bit of load on the bus (20A Utility charge current). It was fine this morning but as I mentioned - the 'gremlin' does not appear to be consistent so will watch it for a few days.

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Re: PIP5048MG: 3Phase Configuration: Fault 08 and anomalies.

Post by TitchRSA »

Thanks @weber
You could try swapping inverters between phases, to see if the problem stays with the same phase or the same inverter.
I'll see what happens over the next few nights and if fault 08 comes back I will move to another phase and see what happens. Good suggestion.

@coulomb
The original poster says in their very first post, that they are running 71.71. So there's no point in trying that.
OK - one less headache to worry about. Thanks.

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Re: PIP5048MG: 3Phase Configuration: Fault 08 and anomalies.

Post by TitchRSA »

Thanks again @coulomb
As there is no PV at night and the loads are using utility (SOL) I am assuming the DC-DC converter creating the bus voltage is the one connected from battery to bus.
If the battery voltage is high enough, yes. Otherwise, the free-wheeling diodes in the inverter may set the bus voltage (if the inverter is connected, e.g. there is no inverter relay present). If there is no battery and the inverter is not connected, I guess nothing charges the bus at all. It may be allowed to fall to near zero with no fault condition.
Battery voltages do not go above 56V (LiFePO4). Bulk and float are set to the same as the units are under load all the time (often using battery) and Lithium batteries quite happy with the voltages. At night the inverter is only supposed to use Utility (SOL) but as you mentioned before, the internal unit uses about 35 to 50W. I doubt this consumption comes from the bus though?
In parallel mode I have to keep batteries connected. These 'battery-less' inverters only work without battery when not in parallel - so there is always battery provided.
I had OSO set so the AC-DC converters should be 'idle' and not affecting the bus?
If your model has 4 relays, then I believe so, yes. If it has only 3, it depends on whether the missing relay is the inverter relay or the output relay (or perhaps the neutral AC-in relay).
No clue as I have no visibility on schematics for the 5048MG and don't have any spare units to peek into.

Thanks though - gives me some options to consider rather than trying to get a replacement from MPP.

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Re: PIP5048MG: 3Phase Configuration: Fault 08 and anomalies.

Post by dRdoS7 »

Hi,
dRdoS7 wrote:
Fri, 24 Jan 2020, 06:06
I have a PIP5048MG, FW: 71.20, and it too has had Error #8.

It hasn't happened for the last 6 months.
I should not written that! :roll:

The last time was August 2019.

I had error #8 this morning (six times, then no more).

It only occurs when in Line Mode and no solar.

I sent an email to MPP support, hopefully there's a (positive) response.

I checked back, my initial error was #55 (DC component in the output voltage exceeds the upper threshold), that was in June 2019, then a while later I had #8 errors.

Thanks,

dRdoS7

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Re: PIP5048MG: 3Phase Configuration: Fault 08 and anomalies.

Post by coulomb »

dRdoS7 wrote:
Sat, 15 Feb 2020, 07:28
I checked back, my initial error was #55 (DC component in the output voltage exceeds the upper threshold), that was in June 2019, then a while later I had #8 errors.
Ah. I wonder if you have a pesky load that you use rarely. One that has a half-wave rectifier in it for cheap and nasty low power operation, such as a hair dryer, heat gun, etc. Some of these also do cycle skipping, which can upset the control systems. One of these systems controls output voltage, so you may notice lights flickering when this happens. The other involves DC bus voltage regulation, which could trigger fault code 08. The half-wave rectifier loads could conceivably trigger fault code 55.

Can you recall a load like that which was used recently, and not for some time? It's possible that it's a load you use frequently, but most of the time the control system is just barely able to cope. But the "six times, then no more" suggests either a load that was used for a short time, or an intermittent hardware fault.

I think I recall someone getting relief from these sorts of problems (it might have been just flickering lights) by using a mains filter (one with inductors and capacitors in it) between the outlet and the offending load. Or a different brand of hair dryer (etc) that uses less nasty techniques to achieve partial loading.

A recent related topic on another forum: Certain loads seem hard on inverters?

Edit: @TitchRSA, do you perhaps also have this sort of load?

[ Edit: "these" → "these systems". ]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
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Re: PIP5048MG: 3Phase Configuration: Fault 08 and anomalies.

Post by dRdoS7 »

Hi,
coulomb wrote:
Sat, 15 Feb 2020, 08:52
Ah. I wonder if you have a pesky load that you use rarely. One that has a half-wave rectifier in it for cheap and nasty low power operation, such as a hair dryer, heat gun, etc. Some of these also do cycle skipping, which can upset the control systems. One of these systems controls output voltage, so you may notice lights flickering when this happens. The other involves DC bus voltage regulation, which could trigger fault code 08. The half-wave rectifier loads could conceivably trigger fault code 55.

Can you recall a load like that which was used recently, and not for some time? It's possible that it's a load you use frequently, but most of the time the control system is just barely able to cope. But the "six times, then no more" suggests either a load that was used for a short time, or an intermittent hardware fault.
Not at 3:30 AM. That's dark time, as one of the grand-kids would have said when little(r).

Last year it happened at 8 PM, and the next day at 1 AM.

My wife may have been awake at those times, but not using anything but the TV and PVR.

I would have been awake at 8 PM, but not at 1 or 3 AM. Unless it was to take a leak. :lol:

Only intermittent loads are a fridge/freezer and a freezer. Most other appliances (TVs, PVRs, PCs, etc.) are either left on, or on standby.

I vote for "an intermittent hardware fault". Of the inverter.

dRdoS7

EDIT: I checked the Error log, and on the last 2 occurrences it was 6 times each then no more as well.

Here's the data log:
Inverter Data.jpg
Inverter Data.jpg (386.25 KiB) Viewed 175 times

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Re: PIP5048MG: 3Phase Configuration: Fault 08 and anomalies.

Post by TitchRSA »

Hi @coulomb @dRdoS7
Ah. I wonder if you have a pesky load that you use rarely. One that has a half-wave rectifier in it for cheap and nasty low power operation, such as a hair dryer, heat gun, etc. Some of these also do cycle skipping, which can upset the control systems. One of these systems controls output voltage, so you may notice lights flickering when this happens. The other involves DC bus voltage regulation, which could trigger fault code 08. The half-wave rectifier loads could conceivably trigger fault code 55.

Can you recall a load like that which was used recently, and not for some time? It's possible that it's a load you use frequently, but most of the time the control system is just barely able to cope. But the "six times, then no more" suggests either a load that was used for a short time, or an intermittent hardware fault.
There are coffee machines, inverter low power aircons and water coolers but these are on another phase and the other two 3-phase inverters work quite fine - no error #08. Any heavy duty tools or inductive loads such as water pumps are on utility by default but can be transferred to the solar system through a 3-way change-over switch. When I switch water pumps (small units) to inverter system there is no error #08 on the respective inverters but it can sometimes play havoc with load limits of the inverter (switching to bypass). There are 3 on-demand pumps - so if they all fire at the same time (unusual) this can be expected.

On the inverter which gives/gave the fault code #08 there are lights, server room electrics (about 1.2kW), data loggers, wi-fi routers and the server room aircon (on 24hr).

My work around the problem was based on some of @coulomb suggestion, bearing in mind this error only occurred at dark time - not during the day with all the loads running;
1. Remove the 3-phase RCD on all input utility sources.
2. Remove the 3-phase output RCD as there are no 3-phase circuits on this system (there are 2 systems). All loads have a single-phase RCD.
3. On the 'faulty inverter", Change program #11 to 10A (Max utility charge), Change program #16 to CSO (Charge Source Priority) - only on the 'faulty inverter'. My theory was that if there is at least some demand on the bus it might keep the bus voltage regulated to some extent.
4. Other settings remain: #1=SOL (Load source priority), #30=ONE (PV Judge).

It's worked fine for 10 days now - we will see.

I did (finally) get some welcome support from MPP in the form of a firmware 'reflash' option, but will only give that a bash if the error comes back.

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Re: PIP5048MG: 3Phase Configuration: Fault 08 and anomalies.

Post by coulomb »

TitchRSA wrote:
Sat, 15 Feb 2020, 14:37
3. On the 'faulty inverter", Change program #11 to 10A (Max utility charge), Change program #16 to CSO (Charge Source Priority) - only on the 'faulty inverter'. My theory was that if there is at least some demand on the bus it might keep the bus voltage regulated to some extent.
That's an interesting idea. I assume you meant change setting 16 for that one inverter to SnU (Solar aNd Utility). I wonder if 2 A might be enough; that's about the idle consumption of two inverters.

[ Edit: added "for that one inverter". ]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
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Re: PIP5048MG: 3Phase Configuration: Fault 08 and anomalies.

Post by TitchRSA »

Hi @coulomb
3. On the 'faulty inverter", Change program #11 to 10A (Max utility charge), Change program #16 to CSO (Charge Source Priority) - only on the 'faulty inverter'. My theory was that if there is at least some demand on the bus it might keep the bus voltage regulated to some extent.
That's an interesting idea. I assume you meant change setting 16 for that one inverter to SnU (Solar aNd Utility). I wonder if 2 A might be enough; that's about the idle consumption of two inverters.
No - I set #16 to CSO for the 'faulty inverter' - Solar energy charges as first priority and utility only after no sun (when dark). The others inverters are on OSO (Only solar to charge). We have this system set to use utility at night (SOL) and so a little extra utility usage won't be significant with a max 10A charge. Roughly an additional 500W per hour for say 10 or so hours (max) - depends on battery state when the sun/rain goes down. I have noticed that the battery charge rate drops off around 2am so it's generally a lot less. The idea is to have reasonably full batteries at the start of day to compensate for low solar energy when needed. Lots of cloud and sporadic showers at the moment - mainly in the afternoon. If the utility dies at night then the battery will just have to do the work until the sun can charge or the utility comes back. There is a backup generator too.

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Re: PIP5048MG: 3Phase Configuration: Fault 08 and anomalies.

Post by coulomb »

TitchRSA wrote:
Sat, 15 Feb 2020, 15:23
No - I set #16 to CSO for the 'faulty inverter' - Solar energy charges as first priority and utility only after no sun (when dark).
Ah, of course. SnU might use utility power during the day, which would be a waste.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
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Re: PIP5048MG: 3Phase Configuration: Fault 08 and anomalies.

Post by dRdoS7 »

Hi,
TitchRSA wrote:
Sat, 15 Feb 2020, 14:37
Hi @coulomb @dRdoS7

My work around the problem was based on some of @coulomb suggestion, bearing in mind this error only occurred at dark time - not during the day with all the loads running;

3. On the 'faulty inverter", Change program #11 to 10A (Max utility charge), Change program #16 to CSO (Charge Source Priority) - only on the 'faulty inverter'. My theory was that if there is at least some demand on the bus it might keep the bus voltage regulated to some extent.
Not sure if I want workaround to work, I'd rather have a fix. But I'll try that on my MG, but set it at 2A, and I'll use 10A if 2A doesn't work. It will charge the battery up to "back to battery" point, then discharge again, 10A is pretty much what our load is overnight. Trouble is, it only happens intermittently, so how will I know it worked? See you in August? :lol:

It might even pay off during the week by charging at off peak, but discharging at peak time.
I did (finally) get some welcome support from MPP in the form of a firmware 'reflash' option, but will only give that a bash if the error comes back.
The reply I received was:
We already provided this information to our engineer. They will confirm this problem again and provide you a solution as soon as possible.
Same response I received in August last year. But no solution was ever offered. Maybe now is soon enough.

I hope they'll send me a FW update too.

The "six" times for this fault sounds like some error function in the FW. It would be big odds for it to happen that way 3 times just by chance.

TitchRSA: Does yours happen in sixes?

Thanks,

dRdoS7

EDIT: Just one more thing: until recently my inverter spent most of the time in Battery Mode. Poor solar, and crook NiFe cells are making it spend more time in Line Mode. Last year we would have been away most of the winter, so it was switched off. Not much chance of a #8 Error there.

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Re: PIP5048MG: 3Phase Configuration: Fault 08 and anomalies.

Post by TitchRSA »

Hi @dRdoS7
Not sure if I want workaround to work, I'd rather have a fix. But I'll try that on my MG, but set it at 2A, and I'll use 10A if 2A doesn't work. It will charge the battery up to "back to battery" point, then discharge again, 10A is pretty much what our load is overnight. Trouble is, it only happens intermittently, so how will I know it worked? See you in August? :lol:
I think max utility charge on 5048MG is in increments of 10A? If that is your overnight load either up it 20A or consider that you will keep a neutral system. I would also prefer a FIX.
I hope they'll send me a FW update too.
No harm in asking - they called the FW fix 'Reflash-error08' FW.
The "six" times for this fault sounds like some error function in the FW. It would be big odds for it to happen that way 3 times just by chance.

TitchRSA: Does yours happen in sixes?
Unfortunately when it happened (overnight only) it disconnected loads until I reset the next morning. Happened a few times but I don't have enough data as the dataloggers got switched off when the inverters disconnected the loads. It did however seem to be more particular over weekends (overnight) but happened regularly overnight from about a week after install. Nobody around then. So - dunno mate.

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Re: PIP5048MG: 3Phase Configuration: Fault 08 and anomalies.

Post by dRdoS7 »

Hi,
TitchRSA wrote:
Sat, 15 Feb 2020, 18:27
Hi @dRdoS7
Not sure if I want workaround to work, I'd rather have a fix. But I'll try that on my MG, but set it at 2A, and I'll use 10A if 2A doesn't work. It will charge the battery up to "back to battery" point, then discharge again, 10A is pretty much what our load is overnight. Trouble is, it only happens intermittently, so how will I know it worked? See you in August? :lol:
I think max utility charge on 5048MG is in increments of 10A? If that is your overnight load either up it 20A or consider that you will keep a neutral system. I would also prefer a FIX.
There's a 2A setting on mine.

I checked usage data this morning, and didn't see any increase over the 4 hours it was in Line Mode, from the previous day during the same time period.

I could see from Watchpower that it was charging from the grid.
The "six" times for this fault sounds like some error function in the FW. It would be big odds for it to happen that way 3 times just by chance.

TitchRSA: Does yours happen in sixes?
Unfortunately when it happened (overnight only) it disconnected loads until I reset the next morning. Happened a few times but I don't have enough data as the dataloggers got switched off when the inverters disconnected the loads. It did however seem to be more particular over weekends (overnight) but happened regularly overnight from about a week after install. Nobody around then. So - dunno mate.
I put in an automatic inverter bypass (30A DPDT relay) when I started having problems last year. There's only my 2 garage roller doors that are sensitive to the changeover. There was a monitoring PC that did too, but the PS fried about a month ago. The replacement PC doesn't have any problem. I'm thinking of having a Latronics ATS installed soon, that has a 12ms transfer time. If that doesn't happen, I'll put in an old inverter and 12V batteries I have lying around, and run the roller doors from that.

dRdoS7

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