PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

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aim120
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by aim120 »

@coulomb So for VMII with DWPH fans, the PWM "030" speed is 3240~3300 rpm keeps varying in that range, according to laser tachometer.

Once the temperature of HHH reached about 58°C to 60°C the PWM was high. I swear I saw a tachometer reading in 5xxx rpm on left AC side FAN A.
(Temperature rise courtesy of hair dryer blowing from the bottom fan vent area for a brief few seconds, with the fan A removed and hanging out for tachometer reading, the front panel was not removed).

Now the DC side right FAN B was not removed from the case but it switched ON and switched Off the moment the hair dryer was removed I am guessing when HHH temperature dropped. At PWM "030" when the Fan B switches On during BULK charging, the FAN A is approximately 2750rpm and when FAN B switches OFF, the FAN A is back to 3240~3300rpm. So clearly a temperature based fan ramp, since the load was basically zero.

In the screen shot below you can see that after the FAN A reaches PWM 097, it slowly ramps down as temperature drops and settles at PWM030
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb »

aim120 wrote:
Thu, 02 Jan 2020, 19:02
@coulomb So for VMII with DWPH fans, the PWM "030" speed is 3240~3300 rpm keeps varying in that range, according to laser tachometer.
Ah. I had assumed that a 3-wire fan doesn't listen to the PWM signal at all. Hell, fan A doesn't even have a wire on the PWM signal (pin 4).

So you're saying that at least fan B (which does have a wire on pin 4, presumably the PWM signal), does have a speed that corresponds to the PWM value in the Q1 command response?
Once the temperature of HHH reached about 58°C to 60°C the PWM was high. I swear I saw a tachometer reading in 5xxx rpm on left AC side FAN A.
This I can believe, since I believe that FAN A gets 12 V or 0 V.
Now the DC side right FAN B was not removed from the case but it switched ON and switched Off the moment the hair dryer was removed I am guessing when HHH temperature dropped. At PWM "030" when the Fan B switches On during BULK charging, the FAN A is approximately 2750rpm and when FAN B switches OFF, the FAN A is back to 3240~3300rpm. So clearly a temperature based fan ramp, since the load was basically zero.
I see the ramp in the PWM value, but do either of the fans seem to follow this ramp?

I can't understand how fan A is sitting at 2750 or ~3300 rpm. Unless its 12 V is being switched on and off; I guess that could explain the variation from 3240 - 3300 rpm.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by aim120 »

coulomb wrote:
Thu, 02 Jan 2020, 19:56
Ah. I had assumed that a 3-wire fan doesn't listen to the PWM signal at all. Hell, fan A doesn't even have a wire on the PWM signal (pin 4).
So you're saying that at least fan B (which does have a wire on pin 4, presumably the PWM signal), does have a speed that corresponds to the PWM value in the Q1 command response?
I couldn't remove the Fan B out, to put the reflective sticker, so I cannot tell, the PWM signal effects FAN A (it may well effected fan B, I failed to pay attention).
(Just to be clear Fan A is the one towards the Ac terminals that has a 3 pin connector while Fan B is towards the PV terminals has a 4 pin connector but with only 3 wires).
Whats weird is the colors of the wires doesn't correspond to your typical fan pin configuration.

coulomb wrote:
Thu, 02 Jan 2020, 19:56
I see the ramp in the PWM value, but do either of the fans seem to follow this ramp?
Fan A, the fan speed reducing was audible when PWM values dropped and occasional tachometer reading also showed rpm dropping. Didn't observe fan B.
Whether there is a proportional rpm drop I don't know, but it sure looks like it follows the ramp.
coulomb wrote:
Thu, 02 Jan 2020, 19:56
I can't understand how fan A is sitting at 2750 or ~3300 rpm. Unless its 12 V is being switched on and off; I guess that could explain the variation from 3240 - 3300 rpm.
I will test Fan B and see if both Fan A and B has the same ramp and will also see if FAN A speed increased when FAN B switches OFF during the PWM at 097. Because when Fan B switched off the moment I blow cold air out the hair dryer into the vent of fan intake, while Fan A was ramping down.

If I could take the front panel out without damaging the warranty sticker, I could point a heat source at the sensor, rather then warming up the entire inverter.

Also In the screen shot, the fan A has no effect on the temperature since it was outside the inverter, so the temperature drop was all by natural air convection (except when the temperature of HHH drops from 60 to 47, where I put a hair dryer (with heater turned OFF) for a few seconds to rapidly cool the inside of the inverter. Ambient room temperature was about 24C .

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by sasa »

coulomb wrote:
Mon, 30 Dec 2019, 12:22
sasa wrote:
Mon, 30 Dec 2019, 06:42
Hi Friends, I wanted advice on a new inverter to buy because my opti solar 5000 brilliant creates problems for me,
We might be able to offer solutions if you provide some details.
around the web I have seen some models of the must that have new solar and grid priority functions in the sense that if the energy solar is not enough to feed the loads the network integrates the rest of the power.
Do you know if yes what would be the model?
Personally, I would not touch Must Power inverters, since they obviously copied from the Voltronic Power design.

In passing, I've noted that their hybrid models (e.g. PV1800 VHM series) have settings like setting 09 "Solar or battery energy feed to grid" (enable/disable). This presumably enables mixing of grid and solar energy, without having to switch the whole load over to the grid. I'm not convinced that this is a major improvement, and brings with it a host of regulatory problems, not to mention tripping meters when export is strictly disallowed.
Ok Grazie Mille

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by leo46 »

hello everyone
have you ever tested having 2 inverters in parallel ?
I have bought a second 5048MG along with parallel communication boards and before connecting them i'd like to know the following :
What happens if you shut one of the inverter (the slave one for example) down ? switch it off.
Because for the night, it's quite useless to have 2 inverters working with no sun on the panels, and no heavy loads.
I'll just use 100Wh for the inverters instead of 50, draining around 600 more Watts off my batteries.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by ojeysky »

Hello, my GK series inverter operates between 35 and 50C and I am wondering if this affect the performance of the inverter? i.e does the harvest reduce as the temperature increases?

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by aim120 »

ojeysky wrote:
Mon, 13 Jan 2020, 03:20
Hello, my GK series inverter operates between 35 and 50C and I am wondering if this affect the performance of the inverter? i.e does the harvest reduce as the temperature increases?
Its normal temperature, it doesn't effect the solar harvest, not sure if these inverters derate based on temperature.

In the GE model, atleast with mine. The fans come On at 41c and turn off at 34c.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by paulvk »

In the GE model, atleast with mine. The fans come On at 41c and turn off at 34c.
Looks like they have adopted another of my suggestions

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb »

ojeysky wrote:
Mon, 13 Jan 2020, 03:20
I am wondering if this affect the performance of the inverter? i.e does the harvest reduce as the temperature increases?
I haven't read the firmware for these models as thoroughly as for the MK series, but it looks like no, the PV current does not appear to derate with temperature. There is no separate SCC processor for these; the main DSP handles the switching of the boost converter. In MS models, this separate processor among many other things measures the temperature and derates the PV power (starting at 85°C). So even if your model derates with temperature, it's most unlikely that it would do so at "only" 50°C.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by ojeysky »

coulomb wrote:
Mon, 13 Jan 2020, 07:44
ojeysky wrote:
Mon, 13 Jan 2020, 03:20
I am wondering if this affect the performance of the inverter? i.e does the harvest reduce as the temperature increases?
I haven't read the firmware for these models as thoroughly as for the MK series, but it looks like no, the PV current does not appear to derate with temperature. There is no separate SCC processor for these; the main DSP handles the switching of the boost converter. In MS models, this separate processor among many other things measures the temperature and derates the PV power (starting at 85°C). So even if your model derates with temperature, it's most unlikely that it would do so at "only" 50°C.
aim120 wrote:
Mon, 13 Jan 2020, 06:14
ojeysky wrote:
Mon, 13 Jan 2020, 03:20
Hello, my GK series inverter operates between 35 and 50C and I am wondering if this affect the performance of the inverter? i.e does the harvest reduce as the temperature increases?
Its normal temperature, it doesn't effect the solar harvest, not sure if these inverters derate based on temperature.

In the GE model, atleast with mine. The fans come On at 41c and turn off at 34c.
Thanks a lot for the response. In that case, I have another question. My harvest seem to have reduced. I tested each of the Panel voltage and it reports over 30v. However when I checked the current of each of them, they were within spec but 4 out of the 8 panels stood out with the following readings:

- 2 panels read beyond spec 11A and 9.7A
- 2 panels read below spec 6.7A

I have attached the spec of the panel. Could this be the reason why I have not been able to harvest more than 5A(and less than 1.2kw)? I have harvested 8.2A before. Any advice on what I should be looking at to resolve this?
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Last edited by ojeysky on Tue, 14 Jan 2020, 03:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by aim120 »

I am no expert here but from what I read, the total output of string is limited by the panel with the lowest current, so in your case it would be the panel with 6.7amp.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by ojeysky »

aim120 wrote:
Tue, 14 Jan 2020, 03:47
I am no expert here but from what I read, the total output of string is limited by the panel with the lowest current, so in your case it would be the panel with 6.7amp.
Sorry for the confusion it's actually 5A that has been my max harvest in the last one month (I have updated my initial post accordingly). So am I experiencing this because of the panels reading 6.7A? I have read that with series connection the least amperage will be applied, in that case, I thought I should make harvest closer to 6.7A instead

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb »

ojeysky wrote:
Tue, 14 Jan 2020, 03:19
- 2 panels read below spec 6.7A
Is this short circuit current in full sunlight? Measured at about the same time (i.e. with the same sun strength) as the ones producing 9.7 A and higher?
So am I experiencing this because of the panels reading 6.7A?
Very likely, yes.
I have read that with series connection the least amperage will be applied, in that case, I thought I should make harvest closer to 6.7A instead
Short circuit current is a little higher than Imp (maximum power current), though usually they are close (e.g. your panel specs say 8.83 A Isc and 8.3 A Imp). I'd still expect more like 6 A, but 5 A is not too surprising.

If there is no shading or other problem (badly crimped connector, etc) with the 6.7 A panels, and your measurements are consistent, then it would seem that you have two under-performing panels. I don't know the quality of the Sunfit panels; perhaps others can comment.

Having two lower producing panels will indeed reduce the production for your whole string, as you have researched.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
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160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by weber »

I'd like to retract, or at least modify, what I wrote here.

When I wrote that the 64 V variants are an abomination, I was thinking as an electronics designer. I would never design something like that — a 48 V sine-wave inverter that clips below 48 V. But hey, we're not buying these inverters because they are well designed. We are buying them because they are half the price of the nearest competitor, and just barely good enough.

And some models only come with the 64 V "feature" now, such as the PIP-MG (Axpert MKS II). So some have asked whether they should add a cell or two to their otherwise nominally-48 V battery, making its nominal voltage more like 52 V. I don't think that is a good idea, because it puts more strain on the inverter's DC-bus capacitors and shortens their life, and when they go they typically take MOSFETs or IGBTs with them, with a bang and some bad-smelling smoke.

Instead, I suggest we just live with the clipping at low battery states. I've seen grid waveforms that are not much better than the inverter output shown here. The most significant problem caused by such waveforms is an increase in the operating temperature (perhaps by 10 °C) of transformers (such as the older heavy style of plug-pack/wall-wart/ac-adapter) and induction motors (typically used in water pumps, washing machines and refrigerators). This will cause these devices to age more rapidly — maybe halving their life if they were always fed such a waveform. But they will only be fed these bad waveforms when the battery is low. Other kinds of loads tolerate these waveforms quite well.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by ojeysky »

coulomb wrote:
Tue, 14 Jan 2020, 06:59
ojeysky wrote:
Tue, 14 Jan 2020, 03:19
- 2 panels read below spec 6.7A
Is this short circuit current in full sunlight? Measured at about the same time (i.e. with the same sun strength) as the ones producing 9.7 A and higher?
Yes I did them the same period, like moving from one panel to the other within few seconds. The strange part is that I did the test when there wasn't significant sunlight... It was around 4pm. So I was surprised to be getting 9.7 and 11A. I used the process here to do the rest after disconnecting the panels.
https://youtu.be/HZf-sm3UXX0
So am I experiencing this because of the panels reading 6.7A?
Very likely, yes.

Could it be tilting of the Panels or does it mean the panels are bad and need replacement? I will try the former today while hoping the issue is not the latter ;)
Meanwhile is it normal for panels to test read way beyond spec?

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb »

ojeysky wrote:
Tue, 14 Jan 2020, 13:46
The strange part is that I did the test when there wasn't significant sunlight... It was around 4pm. So I was surprised to be getting 9.7 and 11A.
Oh, 4pm. You might have mentioned that in the original post. I don't think you can complain about 6.7 A @ 4pm. But then, like you, I'm quite surprised at 11 A. Any chance that the measurement was invalid? For example, Hall Effect sensor drift? Multimeter battery low?
Meanwhile is it normal for panels to test read way beyond spec?
I'll leave that for others to say. I'd guess no, not normal.
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1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by ojeysky »

coulomb wrote:
Tue, 14 Jan 2020, 21:26
ojeysky wrote:
Tue, 14 Jan 2020, 13:46
The strange part is that I did the test when there wasn't significant sunlight... It was around 4pm. So I was surprised to be getting 9.7 and 11A.
Oh, 4pm. You might have mentioned that in the original post. I don't think you can complain about 6.7 A @ 4pm. But then, like you, I'm quite surprised at 11 A. Any chance that the measurement was invalid? For example, Hall Effect sensor drift? Multimeter battery low?
It's possible something was wrong with the multimeter at that time because today at around 12:30pm I was getting 5.3A on the one that read 6.7A(though I did some tilting before that) and 5.7A on the one that was reading 9.7A. I noticed some improvements after tilting today, I think thorough surface cleaning may be the next thing to try.
Thanks for your response

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by dRdoS7 »

Hi,
weber wrote:
Tue, 14 Jan 2020, 10:57
And some models only come with the 64 V "feature" now, such as the PIP-MG (Axpert MKS II). So some have asked whether they should add a cell or two to their otherwise nominally-48 V battery, making its nominal voltage more like 52 V. I don't think that is a good idea, because it puts more strain on the inverter's DC-bus capacitors and shortens their life, and when they go they typically take MOSFETs or IGBTs with them, with a bang and some bad-smelling smoke.
Not happy to read that! :(

I bought an MG for the 64V (66V max.) as my NiFe battery system needs a higher voltage than most (reasonably priced) inverters can provide. Plus, the higher panel voltage allowed me 2 strings, instead of 3, keeping below the 18A input (and removing the 3 string fuses & reduced wiring). While low is now 40V, compared to 38V, I can, and do sometimes, run > 64V (Classic 200 can got to whatever I want).

May have to rethink my battery bank, reduce from 40 to 38 cells (running 39 ATM due to a small incident). Or buy LiFePO4 (that's not going to go down well with my wife :shock: ).

How long do I have? :?:

Good thing is I shut the system down when we're away with our caravan, so there's about 3 months a year it's not running.

dRdoS7

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by weber »

Hi @dRdoS7, Yes, NiFe is an unusual case, due to the huge hysteresis between charge and discharge. I see recommended absorb and float voltages of 1.65 V and 1.45 V per cell, so yes, I think 38 cells would be a better choice than 40 cells. You should still be able to get most of the charge out of them before the lowest cutoff setting of 40 V is tripped. I see they have a rested voltage of 1.15 V per cell at 20% SoC.
https://community.victronenergy.com/sto ... manual.pdf
Maybe do the job in the next month or so. :)

Another option is to upgrade the capacitors if you're up for some heavy-duty de-soldering and soldering.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by dRdoS7 »

Hi,
weber wrote:
Wed, 15 Jan 2020, 10:26
Hi @dRdoS7, Yes, NiFe is an unusual case, due to the huge hysteresis between charge and discharge.
LiFePO4, was, possibly, a better option. :roll:

I though they may not last as long as NiFe. Who knew?
I see recommended absorb and float voltages of 1.65 V and 1.45 V per cell, so yes, I think 38 cells would be a better choice than 40 cells. You should still be able to get most of the charge out of them before the lowest cutoff setting of 40 V is tripped. I see they have a rested voltage of 1.15 V per cell at 20% SoC.
I prefer the full monty. Winter months (when home), especially so.
I have a fair amount of manuals for NiFes. :lol:

Not one of them mentioned failures.
Another option is to upgrade the capacitors if you're up for some heavy-duty de-soldering and soldering.
Option 3: Wire them as a group of 38 and a group of 40 (ie 2 positive off takes), switch between them with a voltage controller & SSRs. I used this method (with 36/40) when I had a PIP3048LU. Worked well, except I used solenoids. Was a reason for the MG: all that was removed.

One other reason I bought the MG was my wife: she said we have to spend some money (financial reasons). So I added more panels. Then I ended up with 5Kw instead of 3Kw, and no error beeping which couldn't be turned off. Strangely, that need to spend apparently doesn't extend to LiFePO4. A Kitchen reno, and a carport for the caravan is fine. Luckily the carport means more roof space = more panels!
Maybe do the job in the next month or so. :)
Waiting for a response from the NiFe supplier WRT to the 4 (or 7 or 8) faulty cells I have. Resolution to that will come first (hopefully in the positive). I may have to change to LiFePO4. All problems solved? Except $$.

Gone slightly OT.

Thanks,

dRdoS7

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by weber »

dRdoS7 wrote:
Wed, 15 Jan 2020, 11:24
LiFePO4, was, possibly, a better option. :roll: I though they may not last as long as NiFe. Who knew?
Even good quality LiFePO₄ will definitely not last as long as good quality NiFe.
I have a fair amount of manuals for NiFes. :lol:
Of course. That was for others who might be reading along. To show where I got the numbers. Citing my source.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by paulvk »

Sorry to hear about the NiFe cells all my ones appeared to test ok when charged and discharged
as 12v sets they ran 5 x 50 watt halogen lamps for m ore than 10 hours and still at 1.2 volts
only problem is one cell has cracked case and finding a glue to seal it is proving difficult

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by aim120 »

What about LTO (titanate) battery, they claim some super high charge/discharge cycles. Why is no one installing them, I get that its costs more then any other lithium battery. Or is their another reason.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by dRdoS7 »

Hi,
paulvk wrote:
Wed, 15 Jan 2020, 17:53
Sorry to hear about the NiFe cells all my ones appeared to test ok when charged and discharged
as 12v sets they ran 5 x 50 watt halogen lamps for m ore than 10 hours and still at 1.2 volts
only problem is one cell has cracked case and finding a glue to seal it is proving difficult
One of mine has a cracked case too. All the way around the top, and about a 4" inch square chunk out of top of one side. Hoping that it can be plastic welded. Though that my be a waste of time, it too may fail in time. I initially thought of glueing, but with caustic inside and a polyprop case, probably not easy. Could do an Edison, and make one out of wood. :)

Amazing what a bit of H2 can do with the assistance of a spark.

Still, could have been worse.

I got an email "read" receipt last night, so I know the supplier has at least seen my email.

dRdoS7

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by paulvk »

I was going to get 64v PIPs but with the software bugs and the problem of not doing so good a sine wave at the low end of NiFe voltages
I have decided to try voltage boosters.
Note Henkel adhesives had no glue to take KOH long term going to see if I can get a case made to fit the cell.

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