PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

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elik745i
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by elik745i » Sun, 29 Sep 2019, 18:59

Hi guys, I have problem with my 5KVA MUSTpower inverter, had just worked 1 year and got broken. I think the problem is with charger board, but not sure as it keep switching on and off the charger board every 40 seconds or so, when it is on charger board delivers power to the load and to the battery, but after about 5-6 seconds relay swiches off and stopping power delivery from solar panels. here are youtube video I took, where you can see settings and internals. Must power can't help, they have got very poor support!
Please help!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOiTCSANW-c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhqg2_rrprQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoOaQV64_Vk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_WUvNWtmFY

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coulomb
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb » Sun, 29 Sep 2019, 22:34

elik745i wrote:
Sun, 29 Sep 2019, 18:59
Hi guys, I have problem with my 5KVA MUSTpower inverter,
It's a MustPower PH1800 series, perhaps a PH18-5048 PLUS. This seems to be a clone of the early PIP-4048MS, with firmware modified to allow feed-in to the grid and 5 kW output.
had just worked 1 year and got broken.
It's a clone, so you don't know what you'll get. MustPower do seem to be one of the larger clone manufacturers, but still.
Must power can't help, they have got very poor support!
Unfortunately, you don't get great support even from a regular reseller. That's the nature of these cheaper machines. The Voltronic Power manufactured units do seem to last reasonably well, as long as they don't get too hot for too long.

Sorry, I don't know how much if any of our limited Voltronic Power based knowledge will translate to these clones. They do look extremely similar internally, but that doesn't mean much.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

Walde
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Walde » Wed, 23 Oct 2019, 05:59

(Defective IGBT on the DC side Q27-Q30 / Error 09)

I just have problems checking the drivers.
In the installed state.
Just do not come to values as in the repair manual.
3.1.3. Drivers (This part is only used for repair checking)
Page 14 - 18

It's about that
Q54 / Q56 / Q51 / Q52
Q55 / Q57 / Q50 / Q53
Q60 / Q61

What values do you have as a reference and which can I check in the built-in condition.

Resistor ohm
Diode Volt

Furthermore I would be interested in the pin assignment of the U9.
For checking

U9 Pin 1-16 ?????? :?:
Resistor:
PIN13 TO PIN12: 22k
PIN11 TO PIN12: 432k
PIN14 TO PIN12: 432k

Greetings Dirk

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb » Wed, 23 Oct 2019, 07:04

Walde wrote:
Wed, 23 Oct 2019, 05:59
Furthermore I would be interested in the pin assignment of the U9.
I'm in a rush this morning. But please check out the partial schematic traces and posts about repairs via the index in the first post of this topic.

In particular, http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?p=65151#p65151 has the part number and a few pin numbers for U9.

Edit: also the resistance values (in particular) and diode range voltages given in the service manual sometimes leave a lot to be desired. I find it best to work out what to expect from the partial schematic traces.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Walde » Wed, 23 Oct 2019, 07:21

coulomb wrote:
Wed, 23 Oct 2019, 07:04
Walde wrote:
Wed, 23 Oct 2019, 05:59
Furthermore I would be interested in the pin assignment of the U9.
I'm in a rush this morning. But please check out the partial schematic traces and posts about repairs via the index in the first post of this topic.

In particular, http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?p=65151#p65151 has the part number and a few pin numbers for U9.

Edit: also the resistance values (in particular) and diode range voltages given in the service manual sometimes leave a lot to be desired. I find it best to work out what to expect from the partial schematic traces.
The information is unfortunately not helpful at all.
Maybe someone else has more to offer.

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Revlac » Wed, 23 Oct 2019, 20:21

Hi Dirk
Just tried testing a few of these for you.

Checked in place are Q51 Q52 Diode values same in the manual (for this test) BE 11.95K BC 780k CE OL
Ok some values will be different than the manual and it was different between 2 inverter boards as well.
I think what matters is that Q54 Q56 Q51 Q52 each have the same values as each other, if 1 is different, then there is a problem with it or components connected to it.

Q55 Q57 Q50 Q53 should also be the same as each other. don't mix them up with the other set.

Q50 Q53 BE 11.95k BC open CE 800K

Only had 2 legs of the bridge in place to test.
The values in the manual are only a rough guide, as are these ones I have here.
I hope this is of some help, If there is any errors please correct it.

Its easy enough to replace busted components that are visible , the hard part is finding the parts that have no visual damage.

Cheers
Aaron

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Walde » Thu, 24 Oct 2019, 05:54

Revlac wrote:
Wed, 23 Oct 2019, 20:21
Its easy enough to replace busted components that are visible , the hard part is finding the parts that have no visual damage.

Cheers
Aaron
Thanks again.

I have the Q50-Q57 checked and they are apparently ok.

How about you with the
Q46 / Q48 / Q41 / Q43
Q47 / Q49 / Q15 / Q16
and
Q60 / Q61

Have already caused problems in the IGBT.
(Defective IGBT on the DC side Q27-Q30 / Error 09)

Do you have a few more values for them?

What values do you have as a reference and which can I check in the built-in condition.

Resistor ohm
Diode volts

Just do not come to values as in the repair manual.
3.1.3. Drivers (This part is only used for repair checking)
Page 14 - 18

??? Someone in the forum from Germany (maybe also from NRW North Rhine-Westphalia) who can help me with troubleshooting?

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Revlac » Thu, 24 Oct 2019, 19:45

Did a few more.
Q46 Q48 Q41 Q43 BE: 23.5meg BC: 23.5Meg CE: 29k with capacitance. Diode check BE: .6v BC: .6v CE: OL

Q47 Q49 Q15 Q16 BE: 23.5Meg BC: 23.5Meg CE: 3.65k Diode BE: .6v BC: OL CE: .185

Q60 Q61 GS: 4.27k GD: 8.9k DS: 63k with capacitance. Diode SD: .185 DS: OL

I say with Capacitance, because it took a Little time for the meter reading to settle.
Honestly, all this means they are not blown up, (not shorted or exploded) and should work ok.

Didn't test Q27 Q28 Q29 Q30 Because I have some Blown IGBT's that need to be removed first.
Had all this scribbled on a piece of paper, so I hope its still in order.....
Now I need a cup of Coffee... or maybe 2. :)

I might have another board somewhere that I can check the IGBT's, will have a look tomorrow.
Cheers Aaron

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Revlac » Fri, 25 Oct 2019, 18:37

Ok I have found another board and tested Q27 Q28 Q29 Q30 resistance GE: 22ohm GC: 532k CE: 590k
Diode EC: .348v CE: OL This lot was the old IRGP4750D
All of these tested good, so I'm happy with that. :D


Now for something else I have been thinking about, It would be nice to limit the current available to the inverter, particularly for the first time start up after a repair job, This way the replacement parts don't get blown to bits again if there is still a faulty part in the gate drive.

Others including myself that have been building and testing LF transformer type inverters (I have learnt the hard way), Start them up without the large capacitors in place, and use a suitable resistor or power supply with a current limit, this way there is not enough current to damage the mosfets, in case there is still a fault with the drive circuit, find the fault, fix it and try again till it works, then put the capacitors back in.

Hopefully those here that know more than me about these HF pip inverters, can answer this question.
How much capacitance can we remove so there is not enough stored energy to damage the mosfets?
I know we will need some capacitor in there to keep any voltage spikes at a safe level?

Or anyone have a better idea? or better explanation?
I would rather not cause more problems.

Cheers
Aaron

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb » Fri, 25 Oct 2019, 19:08

Revlac wrote:
Fri, 25 Oct 2019, 18:37
Now for something else I have been thinking about,
Same here.
It would be nice to limit the current available to the inverter, particularly for the first time start up after a repair job,
But, there is the problem of the energy in the capacitors.
Start them up without the large capacitors in place,
Yeah, but it's a pain removing the large capacitors often soldered in place. Plus, these capacitors are often needed to prevent spikes on the DC bus from blowing up the IGBTs.
Or anyone have a better idea?
I don't know about a better idea, but different. The energy stored in a capacitor is ½CV², so if the bus voltage is reduced by a factor of say 16, then the energy stored is reduced by a factor of 16² = 256. So by running the bus at 24 VDC, you don't have to remove the original capacitors, you know you haven't disturbed the inductance layout, and besides no spike from 24 V is going to kill a 600+ V IGBT.

It's no problem clipping a current limited power supply across the DC bus, but the problem is how to convince the inverter proper to start switching. I gave a way of making the DC-DC MOSFETs and IGBTs switch in this post, but I don't think there is an equivalent trick for the output IGBTs. Oops, I just realised something else; in the post linked above, I still had the MOSFETs removed. If you power up the 48 V bus, even with say 12 V, the transformer with its ~1:8 turns ratio would probably start pushing a lot of voltage to the DC bus. I haven't put my head in this space for a while, so I can't be sure. There might be a simple way to decouple the two systems (the DC-DC and the inverter proper). At least this trick could be used to test the DC-DC IGBTs.

Of course, there is no guarantee that if the circuit works at low voltage, it will still stand up at high voltage. But it's possibly a good try.

If you're more interested in the MOSFETs than the inverter proper IGBTs, then the lowest practical battery voltage would probably be around 12-15 V, so that the power reduction is only some 16x. I have no idea if this is enough, though you could probably work it out from the MOSFET data sheets.

The Elcon/TC chargers had a series of jumpers that presumably were designed for testing at low voltage and current limited; I used that facility many times. You could actually test the whole charger with literally a DC power supply connected to the mains plug active and neutral. The final test was even at proper DC bus voltage (though with the power factor correction stage still running at ~56 VDC).

I hope that my vague suggestions will stimulate some more practical and detailed ideas and procedures.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

Revlac
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Revlac » Mon, 28 Oct 2019, 20:05

Thanks Coulomb
Somehow I missed reading that page about testing the gate drive circuit, interesting, at that frequency I can see why the caps are not really big.
I'm learning there is a lot going on between frequency, capacitance, inductance and easy for it to go wrong.

I agree it would be better and easier to leave the caps in place and run at low voltage, provided the voltage is high enough for the inverter to attempt a start up or POST.
I have to look through the trace schematic a few more times to understand a bit better.

At the moment I don't have a spare working control card, The one I just tried, I forgot that had been damaged from a lightning strike some time back.

Avoiding the inverter proper for the moment, and with it in working order, What I think should happen with a reduced current startup, The inverter DC-DC side should either attempt to run and then fail or stop immediately after the power switch is pushed (If the repair was not successful), without any damage to components, hopefully.
will find out later if this works.
I think most of the Error 09 events would be the DC-DC side.

When I get some more time and some parts together I will certainly try a few different ideas, test it and see what happens. :)

I will have a look at those Elcon chargers, sounds interesting.

Cheers Aaron

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb » Mon, 28 Oct 2019, 20:30

Revlac wrote:
Mon, 28 Oct 2019, 20:05
I will have a look at those Elcon chargers, sounds interesting.
Oh, those are obsolete now, they haven't been manufactured since the end of 2013. There are still a few around in conversions, of course.

But if you're curious, this is the topic to explore:

https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/s ... 90162.html

My index is in the third post.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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sunny day but 0V from PV

Post by McMajan » Sun, 01 Dec 2019, 01:31

Hi guys. I've a little problem. I think it's an hardware problem, but I’m not so sure. I've not found solutions in the forum so I ask if you have any idea. The problem is that my Axpert 5k 0.8pf doesn’t see the PV. Icon of panels is NOT present, but I’ve a good voltage (about 105-109V) and batteries at 90-100% (not too low level). External sofware says 0V. I tried an external MPPT with similar technical characteristics of my Axpert and it works fine charging the batteries. Before this complete dead, I had strange problems, for example no PV input for half day or PV input only for some minutes in all day, but in random day. The board receive voltage from the external screw connector (tested with multimeter). I think some components are dead but I have no experience in this specific field. I updated the U1 firmware to 73.00e without any effect to the problem.
If the board is dead, can I bypass it connecting the out of external mppt ?(I think the output is the red and black cables in the middle of the board).

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Re: sunny day but 0V from PV

Post by paulvk » Sun, 01 Dec 2019, 06:19

McMajan wrote:
Sun, 01 Dec 2019, 01:31
If the board is dead, can I bypass it connecting the out of external mppt ?(I think the output is the red and black cables in the middle of the board).
Those terminals are across the battery input so no different than connecting your external MPPT charger onto your battery.
I have external MPPT charger on my battery as a 3rd charger it works ok.
The charge current in the PIP is monitored by the MPPT board so if its not working the solar charge volts/amps will not be controlled by the PIP.
Regards Paul

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Re: sunny day but 0V from PV

Post by coulomb » Sun, 01 Dec 2019, 07:03

McMajan wrote:
Sun, 01 Dec 2019, 01:31
If the board is dead, can I bypass it connecting the out of external mppt ?(I think the output is the red and black cables in the middle of the board).
As Paul says, connect the external MPPT directly to the battery. The red and black wires, as far as I can tell, are both nearly at battery positive when the SCC relays are on. They have less than a milli-ohm between them (if I read the circuit board photos correctly), so DO NOT connect the MPPT output to those two wires.

[ Edit: I got this wrong. Those red and black wires are not the easily accessible ones with the lugs and screws. However, the easily accessible ones are just the other side of the inductors, so still a very low resistance between them, so the message not to connect to these remains completely valid. ]

Without the SCC powered up and working, the voltage across the current sensing resistors will not be read, so there is no way for the inverter-charger proper to be aware of the external MPPT charge current.

SCC Red Black wires.png
SCC Red Black wires.png (62.69 KiB) Viewed 213 times
Edit: This is based on this photo:

SCC Red Black below .jpg
SCC Red Black below .jpg (251.95 KiB) Viewed 217 times
Edit 2: This is based on the long 60 A SCC board introduced in late 2015. I assume that the earlier version and the later 80 A version is much the same.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: sunny day but 0V from PV

Post by coulomb » Tue, 03 Dec 2019, 09:01

McMajan wrote:
Sun, 01 Dec 2019, 01:31
I think it's an hardware problem, but I’m not so sure. I've not found solutions in the forum so I ask if you have any idea.
To answer your actual question belatedly, it does sound like the SCC board is faulty. It doesn't sound like your panel voltage is too high, so that can't be the cause.

It's possible that you could buy a replacement SCC board from your supplier, and either fit it yourself or get someone to do it for you. That will integrate somewhat better with the rest of the inverter-charger, but it's not essential. You might also be able to repair the SCC board, but you'd need to have good electronic skills, or find someone who does. These don't fail often enough for there to be even a partial schematic trace for them.

Edit: the fact that you (presumably) don't see the PV icon on the inverter's LC Display, and voltage is present at the PV input terminals, pretty much proves that the SCC board is faulty. There is a minuscule chance that it is the cables or the serial port at the control board end, assuming that you haven't been disconnecting and reconnecting cables inside the inverter-charger. (Connecting the SCC cable to the wrong place is a known issue.)
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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