E63 LG 63Ah NCM battery group buy

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E63 LG 63Ah NCM battery group buy

Post by francisco.shi » Fri, 22 Feb 2019, 12:01

I am going to buy the cells for my battery pack and I was wondering if anyone would be interested in getting some of these cells.
I will need to buy 200 for my self. I am hoping to get a total of 500 cells or more to get a good price on the freight.
The cells are US$45 per cell which works out to about US$190/kwh.
I can also supply the clamps for the tabs, BMS and the mounting hardware for the cooling system but I don't have a cost for that yet.
If anyone is interested could you let me know how many would you buy.

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Re: E63 LG 63Ah NCM battery group buy

Post by 4Springs » Fri, 22 Feb 2019, 13:45

Mmmmm....
If I've done my sums right, a 150V 37kWh pack would cost about $10k (AUD). It would weigh about 160kg without the mounting hardware. That's 166 cells. I'd decrease the weight of my vehicle and increase the range to about 150km.
I might be in the market for a new battery soon, and this is very tempting, but I probably shouldn't. Too many other projects on the go...

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Re: E63 LG 63Ah NCM battery group buy

Post by jonescg » Fri, 22 Feb 2019, 13:55

That is an outstandingly good price - better than the cheapest 18650 cells and less trouble to assemble.
Alas I am in the same boat as Christopher - need to finish other projects before I can get onto new ones.
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Re: E63 LG 63Ah NCM battery group buy

Post by francisco.shi » Fri, 22 Feb 2019, 15:13

4Springs wrote:
Fri, 22 Feb 2019, 13:45
Mmmmm....
If I've done my sums right, a 150V 37kWh pack would cost about $10k (AUD). It would weigh about 160kg without the mounting hardware. That's 166 cells. I'd decrease the weight of my vehicle and increase the range to about 150km.
I might be in the market for a new battery soon, and this is very tempting, but I probably shouldn't. Too many other projects on the go...
The weight including mounting hardware and cooling system is about 200wh/kg all up as a pack the only thing you need is a bracket on each end of the pack and something to cover it so you can't touch the live wires.

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Re: E63 LG 63Ah NCM battery group buy

Post by francisco.shi » Fri, 22 Feb 2019, 15:18

Your sums are right. The 37kwh pack would weigh 185kg.
I have a 14kwh pack that weighs 69.4kg complete with all hardware cooling plates and cooling manifold.
I am planning to order the cells in the next 2 months so I am giving enough notice to anyone who may be thinking about buying batteries.

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Re: E63 LG 63Ah NCM battery group buy

Post by Richo » Tue, 26 Feb 2019, 12:37

Sorry do you have dimensions and general specs on the cells?

The USD$45 is that the cost price at the supplier over seas?
Even if it were that is still on par with the cost of the 2nd hand leaf cells when they were more available.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Re: E63 LG 63Ah NCM battery group buy

Post by francisco.shi » Tue, 26 Feb 2019, 16:01

The price is the cost price at the supplier overseas, so we would need to add the freight. I am hoping that if I can buy enough cells in one go I can send them by sea at a much lower price.
Nominal Voltage 3.6
Nominal Capacity 63Ah
Weight 969g
Continuous Discharge rate 2C
Peak 5C
I measured the internal resistance and it is about 1.5mOhms
I did a capacity test at 1C from 4.2v to 3v (they claim 4.2 to 2.5 but I was not game enough to go down to 2.5) and I did get slightly over 63Ah (about 65Ah)
E63 Dimensions.JPG
E63 Dimensions.JPG (46.83 KiB) Viewed 2059 times
I have also made some clamps for the tabs and working on a BMS (one board per cell). The clamping system does not need holes to be made to the tabs and I have managed to get about 1.5mv drop from one cell to the next at 1C. I still do not have a cost for the BMS or the clamps. I have also made a cooling system and mounting hardware but as of now I still do not have a price for the mounting hardware.
I guess I would need to get a quantity to work out a cost and probably improve the manufacturing process of the parts.

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Re: E63 LG 63Ah NCM battery group buy

Post by rutuja » Tue, 05 Mar 2019, 14:37

On the off chance that I've done my aggregates right, a 150V 37kWh pack would cost about $10k (AUD). It would weigh about 160kg without the mounting equipment. That is 166 cells. I'd decline the heaviness of my vehicle and increment the range to about 150km.
I may be in the market for another battery soon, and this is enticing, yet I most likely shouldn't. An excessive number of different activities in a hurry...

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Re: E63 LG 63Ah NCM battery group buy

Post by 4Springs » Tue, 05 Mar 2019, 16:55

rutuja wrote:
Tue, 05 Mar 2019, 14:37
An excessive number of different activities in a hurry...
We appear to have some kind of re-posting bot here? Interesting...

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Re: E63 LG 63Ah NCM battery group buy

Post by bentley » Sun, 28 Apr 2019, 21:39

Hi

I would be interested in about 3kw/hr of cells for offgrid storage about $600 worth.

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Re: E63 LG 63Ah NCM battery group buy

Post by francisco.shi » Mon, 29 Apr 2019, 15:44

I keep it in mind. I am hoping to order the cells towards the end of next month. I will let you know the cost once I know how many I am getting.

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Re: E63 LG 63Ah NCM battery group buy

Post by brunohill » Tue, 30 Apr 2019, 05:58

Looks like they are the batteries, 2p in the ZOE and 3p in the KONA. There must be a way of fitting them 2p in an older LEAF.

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Re: E63 LG 63Ah NCM battery group buy

Post by francisco.shi » Tue, 30 Apr 2019, 07:00

I am sure it would not be difficult to retrofit them in other battery packs.
In fact I don't see why you can not replace cells in any pack with cells different to the originals as long as the voltages are the same so the original BMS will still work.

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Re: E63 LG 63Ah NCM battery group buy

Post by francisco.shi » Thu, 30 May 2019, 08:36

I am about to order the E63 cells.
A rough estimate on the price is US$42 per cell and about A$3.20 per cell for the freight with the current quantity.
This is around U$180/kwh
The exchange rate at the moment is 0.69 so including freight it would be around A$271/kwh.


If anyone is interested in getting some please let me know.

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Re: E63 LG 63Ah NCM battery group buy

Post by francisco.shi » Wed, 24 Jul 2019, 08:37

I do the cell interconnect and assembly as in the pictures below.
I will have the BMS boards finished in the next week or so if anyone wants to use them.
The BMS has a DC-DC converter to put the bypass energy into the pack instead of turning it into heat as most BMSs do.
This means the cells can be balanced continuously during charge or discharge without loosing the energy or overheating the pack.
It can bypass about 10A (about 40w) continuous per cell. It is possible to replace the transformer with resistors if you do not want the DC-DC converter.
The BMS goes inside the battery pack in between the cells.
20190724_095730.jpg
Connection at the end of the string.
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20190724_095910.jpg
View of clamps between cells with BMS board.
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20190724_095953.jpg
View from other size of BMS
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20190724_100502.jpg
Strap for clamping pouches together.
20190724_100502.jpg (143.32 KiB) Viewed 1118 times
The clamps are in fact a curved spring which ensure you have the same pressure thru the entire surface of the tab.
If the clamp was a straight piece it would have pressure only next to the screws and nothing in the middle.
20190724_102539.jpg
View of loose clamp.
20190724_102539.jpg (144.99 KiB) Viewed 1118 times

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Re: E63 LG 63Ah NCM battery group buy

Post by Scotty T » Wed, 24 Jul 2019, 09:12

That's looking pretty cool Francisco!

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Re: E63 LG 63Ah NCM battery group buy

Post by 4Springs » Wed, 24 Jul 2019, 16:28

It looks like you have three cells in parallel in each clamp? Or could you fit more?
I'm thinking of 4 or 5 in parallel.
What are the overall dimensions including the clamping hardware? I have one long battery box (in the back) and two short ones (in the front, for weight distribution). I think the long one is 1200mm long, so I might get three cells in there lengthways?

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Re: E63 LG 63Ah NCM battery group buy

Post by francisco.shi » Wed, 24 Jul 2019, 18:46

I have 3 in parallel. You can put more but I am not sure if the tabs will be long enough. If the tabs are not long enough you just need to put some spacers between the tabs so they do not have to bend too far.
I can sell you the clamping hardware for the connections. They are pretty straight forward to use.
If you designed the BMS all you need to do is modify the layout a little to have the two holes in the right place and you need to solder some insert nuts with threads for the connection clamping bolts.
I will send you dimensions a little later.
Assembling the pack with the water cooling system and pouch clamping hardware is a little difficult. You need a special jig to hold everything in place while you assemble it.

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Re: E63 LG 63Ah NCM battery group buy

Post by 4Springs » Wed, 24 Jul 2019, 19:31

francisco.shi wrote:
Wed, 24 Jul 2019, 18:46
Assembling the pack with the water cooling system and pouch clamping hardware is a little difficult. You need a special jig to hold everything in place while you assemble it.
How necessary would the water cooling be?
I'd assume that the NCM cells would be at least as good as LFP for internal resistance? I've never had any hint of my LFP pack heating up above ambient temperature, and ambient temperature seldom exceeds 25 degrees C. With our climate I'm much more concerned with keeping cells warm, so I have heaters under my LFPs. I'm guessing I wouldn't need the water cooling.

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Re: E63 LG 63Ah NCM battery group buy

Post by francisco.shi » Wed, 24 Jul 2019, 20:01

The distance between one cell and the next is 350mm.
The distance between the edges of the tabs for 2 cells in line is 730mm.
So 3 cells will be 1080mm.
I think you can probably get 4 tabs in one clamp without any spacers but would have to try it 5 may be pushing it. For 5 you just put a strip of 6mm flat the same size as the tabs and that should fix it.

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Re: E63 LG 63Ah NCM battery group buy

Post by francisco.shi » Wed, 24 Jul 2019, 20:04

I guess you don't need the water cooling if you don't push the cells too hard.
If you have had cells without cooling before I would assume it would be ok. You just need to put a plate on each side so the straps do not damage the surface of the cells.

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Re: E63 LG 63Ah NCM battery group buy

Post by francisco.shi » Thu, 25 Jul 2019, 08:07

I forgot to mention my BMS board is 27x109mm. You can probably go as wide as 33mm before it starts touching the pouches.
The clamps are 2.5mm thick. The holes are 5.2mm diameter and 50mm apart. The threaded inserts that go on the board are 13mm diameter x5mm high. So there will be 5mm clearance between the board and the clamp and the hole and you will need a 7.6mm hole on the pcb. The threaded inserts are soldered to the board.

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Re: E63 LG 63Ah NCM battery group buy

Post by 4Springs » Thu, 25 Jul 2019, 16:10

So I've just measured up my battery boxes, and they look like they would suit these cells.
5p 40s would theoretically fit, and would give me 47kWh with a 20kg weight increase over my current 20kWh pack.
4p 41s would fit with a lot more room to spare, and would give me 38kWh with a 20kg weight decrease.
Sounds like 4p would be a bit easier to clamp. 41s would match my current voltage (48 LFP).

Working on the theory of 4p 41s:
I'd fit two rows of three in the rear battery box, lying on their flat. Is that orientation ok? I'd then pile them up. I have about 350mm to the top of the box. The cell dimensions above give a thickness of 11.5mm, so I'm thinking that I'd be able to fit 5 piles of 4 cells. 20x11.5 = 230mm, so I have 110mm for other hardware (plates etc.).

The end clamps are (presumably threaded) aluminium blocks, then you put on your spring clamp and bolt it down. 4 cells and a clamp each side so it acts as a bus bar.
The centre clamps are threaded into the BMS board? So does it clamp against the board, or is that other aluminium piece also threaded?
The BMS boards only have access to one end of the cell. So for mine I'd need to run a wire to the other end, since they are powered by the cell voltage.
I assume I wouldn't need to put the BMS boards there, I could run a wire to each end and put them to the side of the cell. It is a handy spot though, and I think I could make my boards fit.

How am I going - does this all look correct?

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Re: E63 LG 63Ah NCM battery group buy

Post by francisco.shi » Thu, 25 Jul 2019, 20:25

4Springs wrote:
Thu, 25 Jul 2019, 16:10
So I've just measured up my battery boxes, and they look like they would suit these cells.
5p 40s would theoretically fit, and would give me 47kWh with a 20kg weight increase over my current 20kWh pack.
4p 41s would fit with a lot more room to spare, and would give me 38kWh with a 20kg weight decrease.
Sounds like 4p would be a bit easier to clamp. 41s would match my current voltage (48 LFP).
The energy density of these cells is really good. I am glad you can see the improvement you would get by using them.

4Springs wrote:
Thu, 25 Jul 2019, 16:10
Working on the theory of 4p 41s:
I'd fit two rows of three in the rear battery box, lying on their flat. Is that orientation ok? I'd then pile them up. I have about 350mm to the top of the box. The cell dimensions above give a thickness of 11.5mm, so I'm thinking that I'd be able to fit 5 piles of 4 cells. 20x11.5 = 230mm, so I have 110mm for other hardware (plates etc.).
I think you can put them in any orientation you like. The thickness sounds about right. In my pack I have 12mm between cells but that is because I have a 0.5mm cooling plate between each cell. I have a 3mm plate on each end of the stack and two steel straps to keep everything clamped. So 100mm is more than enough. If you wanted to make things fancy you could put two aluminium plates the full length of the battery pack. After you clamp them together they will form the case and the structure to hold the pack. The only problem is you won't have access to the BMS once it is all clamped but I don't think that is a big issue.
4Springs wrote:
Thu, 25 Jul 2019, 16:10
The end clamps are (presumably threaded) aluminium blocks, then you put on your spring clamp and bolt it down. 4 cells and a clamp each side so it acts as a bus bar.
That is correct. The aluminium blocks are essentially a bus bar. It is 12mm thick and 70mm wide. If you wanted to save weight you could hollow out the center. The surface where the tabs make contact has to be machined flat so you can get a good contact.
If you need the end blocks I can supply them for you.
4Springs wrote:
Thu, 25 Jul 2019, 16:10
The centre clamps are threaded into the BMS board? So does it clamp against the board, or is that other aluminium piece also threaded?

The BMS board has nuts that are soldered to the board. The clamps bolt onto them. The nuts stick out about 5mm off the surface of the board so the clamps do not touch the board. I can supply the nuts that solder to the board aswell. I will send a picture tomorrow.
4Springs wrote:
Thu, 25 Jul 2019, 16:10
The BMS boards only have access to one end of the cell. So for mine I'd need to run a wire to the other end, since they are powered by the cell voltage.
I assume I wouldn't need to put the BMS boards there, I could run a wire to each end and put them to the side of the cell. It is a handy spot though, and I think I could make my boards fit.
That is correct. On my BMS I have a wire with a lug on the end that bolts to the same bolts that hold the clamps on the other end of the cell. The nuts that are soldered on the board are the other contact. It is a very convenient place to put the BMS. It is very well protected with no wires going everywhere. You only need two wires one for the com's to the next board and the other for the other cell contact. In my pack the wires fit very neatly between the cooling tubes also protected by the cooling tubes. It also allows for a very neat package with only one comms wire and the two power terminals to come out of the pack. You should be able to make your BMS fit. If mine fits yours should also fit. I have the transformer in there which you don't have.
4Springs wrote:
Thu, 25 Jul 2019, 16:10
How am I going - does this all look correct?
So far so good. I think you are on the right track.

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Re: E63 LG 63Ah NCM battery group buy

Post by francisco.shi » Fri, 26 Jul 2019, 09:02

This is how the board fits on the clamps.
20190726_105025.jpg
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These are the nuts that solder on the board.
20190726_105257.jpg
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20190726_105209.jpg
20190726_105209.jpg (132.07 KiB) Viewed 1035 times
I have not been able to assemble the BMS boards because I am still waiting for the processors. Once I have some assembled I will post some pictures.

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