PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

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weber
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by weber » Mon, 19 Nov 2018, 08:05

rezydent wrote:
Sun, 18 Nov 2018, 20:09
I have a question. If, in my PIP4048, I would replace transistors, withstand higher voltage, and load software that would allow up to 66V, everything would work properly? if I understand correctly, I could raise the charging voltage to 66V
Unfortunately no. For starters, you would need to upgrade DC bus capacitors as well as transistors, on both the battery bus and the 400 V inverter bus. And it is possible that, in the models that are designed to operate up to 64 V, the high-frequency transformer has a lower turns ratio (say 7.5:1 instead of 8:1). Also, there may be a different voltage-divider ratio used to sense the battery voltage. Also, the bootstrap loader and reflash software are designed to not allow 64 V firmware to be loaded into non-64 V machines.
Which transistors should I replace?
You can see this post:
viewtopic.php?title=pip4048ms-inverter& ... 332#p64358
But I note that it is simply aimed at improving the robustness of the 58.4 V models, not upgrading them to 64 V.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by mindlessmoose » Mon, 19 Nov 2018, 19:11

Hi Guys,
I'm also having Error 51 issues, very similar to Savage1ZA. I have two 4048-MS units in parallel (manufactured 2015) running factory 52.3/01.24 firmware. PV array is 4500W split between the two units. There is no grid connection (except for a standby generator). I thought I might share the symptoms with you all.

They ran flawlessly for several years, then one started failing daily with Error 51. After a restart it runs fine for an hour or so, then fails again.
This is ALWAYS in the afternoon, when they are idling away on float with practically no load, maybe 100-250W. Also, like Savage1ZA, it NEVER fails after the sun goes down, but it has failed in the afternoon, even when the PV array is isolated. It doesn't appear to be a heat issue, they're always only just warm to the touch, top and bottom.

I suspected perhaps a dirty load could be causing this grief, so I followed coulomb's suggestion and replaced to two MOVs on the inverter output with his recommended replacements today, but to no avail, same symptoms this afternoon.

Hope this may help to shed some light on this rather nasty error.

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb » Mon, 19 Nov 2018, 19:50

mindlessmoose wrote:
Mon, 19 Nov 2018, 19:11
I'm also having Error 51 issues, very similar to Savage1ZA. I have two 4048-MS units in parallel (manufactured 2015) running factory 52.3/01.24 firmware.
Please check for a Private Message, and @Savage1ZA also.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by rodriale » Sun, 25 Nov 2018, 04:26

Good day everyone,

I have this PIP2424MXSE, it was working good the last year, and then a strike blow it up.
First I got the 09 code fault, "Bus soft start failed". After open the case I found four X2 capacitors, one MOV, and three transistors GW45HF60WDA blowed up.

Image

Image

Image

I have changed this components, there are five GW45HF60WDA, and only three of them blowed, but I changed them all.
Afer this, I don't have anymore the 09 fault code, now I have a 07 "overload time out" error when I turn on the switch of the MPP and disconnect it from the grid. In adittion, without anything connected to the output, I read always around 350-500 VA, only reactive power, 0 W active power.
With the switched turned off, the inverter charges the batteries just as normal. When turn it on, it shows a 11-13% load (with no load connected) and no errors. If I connect something, like a 42W iron in the output, it measures more than 3KVA and 07 fault code again.

Image

I didn't use the service manual because I didn't know about it at that time. Sorry for my poor english.
Thanks in advance for any advice you can give me.

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by mindlessmoose » Sun, 25 Nov 2018, 19:23

Hi Guys,

Are the under-rated 63V capacitors and the under-rated MOSFETS that have been causing grief located on the SCC or the main board?

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb » Sun, 25 Nov 2018, 19:49

rodriale wrote:
Sun, 25 Nov 2018, 04:26
Good day everyone,
Welcome to the forum.
I have this PIP2424MXSE, it was working good the last year, and then a strike blow it up.
First I got the 09 code fault, "Bus soft start failed".
That's usually a tough one to recover from.
After open the case I found four X2 capacitors, one MOV, and three transistors GW45HF60WDA blowed up.
It's not clear whether you replaced all the MOVs. It would seem a good idea to replace all MOVs after a lightning event.
Afer this, I don't have anymore the 09 fault code, now I have a 07 "overload time out" error ... If I connect something, like a 42W iron in the output, it measures more than 3KVA and 07 fault code again.
I don't know your firmware at all, but it seems that the error (fault) codes are consistent across the 1-5 kVA off-grid models. So this is referring to load power, presumably measured via the current transformer on the AC output. I'm not sure, but I think it's this one from your photo (outlined in red):

PIP-2424MSXE probable CT location.jpg
PIP-2424MSXE probable CT location.jpg (93.29 KiB) Viewed 3692 times
If the current transformer is blown, then I don't see how you could obtain a replacement. But it may be the burden resistor (a low valued resistor on the output of the current transformer), or the op-amp that it connects to, or associated parts. That op-amp may be on the control board (the daughter board with the processor on it), at the bottom of the photo). I'm not ware of any schematics or even partial schematic traces for that part of the circuit. The op-amps seem to be 8-pin or 14-pin SOIC types.

Good luck, and congratulations on progress thus far.

[ Edit: Added "or 14 pin" near "op-amps seem to be". ]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb » Sun, 25 Nov 2018, 19:54

mindlessmoose wrote:
Sun, 25 Nov 2018, 19:23
Are the under-rated 63V capacitors and the under-rated MOSFETS that have been causing grief located on the SCC or the main board?
They're on the main board. I've not heard of nearly as much trouble with the Solar Charge Controllers as with the rest of the inverter-chargers.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by rodriale » Mon, 26 Nov 2018, 13:09

Good day, thank you for your kind response @coulomb
It's not clear whether you replaced all the MOVs. It would seem a good idea to replace all MOVs after a lightning event.
I didn't :cry: , I just replace the blowed one, because I couldn't find a good MOV like the original here in Argentina neither in Brasil, so I replace it with a cheaper one. I have readed your post about what happen with MOVs after lightning events, so in the first place I though that some of the output MOVs were damaged and acting as a load when more than 220V is apllied on them. :arrow: To disregard, I cut all the MOVs out of the board :shock:
Nothing changes, the display shows the same gost load (~400 VA pure reactive). :arrow: I put them in again.
If the current transformer is blown, then I don't see how you could obtain a replacement. But it may be the burden resistor (a low valued resistor on the output of the current transformer), or the op-amp that it connects to, or associated parts. That op-amp may be on the control board (the daughter board with the processor on it), at the bottom of the photo). I'm not ware of any schematics or even partial schematic traces for that part of the circuit. The op-amps seem to be 8-pin SOIC types.
You were completely right :D . That transformer is labeled "CT1", I didn't know about it.

Found that burden resistor on the output of the current transformer.

The resistor was completely open. After replaced it with a new one, the inverter is working without errors. Now I just need to connect it to the solar panels to be sure it will work with them.

There are those op-amps you mentioned. Connected to the pin 4 of the control board, there is a TL074I associated to the current transformer.
Image

So far, I'm very grateful for your help, thank you very much!
Last edited by weber on Wed, 19 Dec 2018, 07:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb » Mon, 26 Nov 2018, 16:27

rodriale wrote:
Mon, 26 Nov 2018, 13:09
... I just replace the blown one, because I couldn't find a good MOV like the original here in Argentina neither in Brasil, so I replace it with a cheaper one.
Mouser Argentina have them:
https://ar.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Lit ... SL2l6pg%3d
The US$35 flat rate shipping is steep, though. You'd want to save up and buy a bunch of stuff at once to make it worth while.

It's great to hear that replacing the burden resistor fixed the error 07 problem.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by CrOhN » Wed, 05 Dec 2018, 01:42

Hi mates :). My first post here, but long time reader. I must thank the topic participants for the excellent info found on it!

I to have a PIP-5048MSP for about 4.5 years. All been working fine, except 3 fan faults. Today a new problem arouse. It started to trip the mains differential when the inverter switches to Line bypass. Sometimes it holds, but i get tension on the earth lead. I'm thinking there must be some short on the line to battery switch (relays with contacts glued maybe). On battery, no problem. Only on line bypass.

What do you think? Is there any schematic of this part of the circuit? I searched but couldn't find anything.

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by weber » Wed, 05 Dec 2018, 07:47

CrOhN wrote:
Wed, 05 Dec 2018, 01:42
Hi mates :). My first post here, but long time reader. I must thank the topic participants for the excellent info found on it!

I to have a PIP-5048MSP for about 4.5 years. All been working fine, except 3 fan faults. Today a new problem arouse. It started to trip the mains differential when the inverter switches to Line bypass. Sometimes it holds, but i get tension on the earth lead. I'm thinking there must be some short on the line to battery switch (relays with contacts glued maybe). On battery, no problem. Only on line bypass.

What do you think? Is there any schematic of this part of the circuit? I searched but couldn't find anything.
Welcome @CrOhN, and thanks for the kind words.

I have never heard of a PIP-5048MSP, and I don't think any kind of 5048 existed 4.5 years ago. Decoding that part number in the manner I describe here, would give it continuous output power of 5000 W / 6250 VA. What are the continuous W and VA specs in its manual? I'm guessing they will be 4000 W / 5000 VA which would make it a PIP-4048MS (assuming its SCC is an MPPT type with a max open circuit voltage of 145 V). Can you tell us what main (U1) firmware version it came with?

In the PIP-4048MS, we think the arrangement of those relays has changed twice since they were first sold. We have a manufacturer's schematic for what we think is the first configuration, which is most likely what you have, and we have a guess at the third configuration. [@coulomb perhaps update the index page to make these findable with the word "relay".]

It's a long-shot, but I note that there is a small circuit board raised on standoffs that parallels some of these relays with triacs. We think this is for fast changeover, although it may also reduce arcing of the relay contacts. Maybe something on this triac board has gone leaky. So, if replacing relays doesn't fix it, you might try removing this board temporarily to see if the fault goes away, but don't run any inductive loads during the test, just in case. We have not tried operating without this board, so this would be at your own risk.

[Edit: It might instead be a leaky MOV or capacitor.]
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by CrOhN » Wed, 05 Dec 2018, 16:14

Thanks for your replay @weber . Of course it is the 4048MSP. My bad for rush posting!

I've seen the schematic you pointed out, but it is a block schematic. It helps to some extent. For now, i disconnected the inverter from mains. Will try to check the inverter in the weekend.

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by paulvk » Wed, 05 Dec 2018, 18:44

Hello CrOhN
Is there an earth on the neutral at the output of the inverter if not it will go to about 90 volts and can case
it to trip the mains differential.
There needs to be a mains differential safety relay on the output of the inverter
There needs to be a relay that puts an earth on the neutral when the inverter is running
but removes it when connected to the mains as this should then be replaced by the MEN link
this also means it may not be possible to have one on the input of the inverter
due to leakage from slow relay not removing the earth fast enough.
So measure neutral to ground when the inverter is on.

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by CrOhN » Wed, 05 Dec 2018, 21:52

paulvk wrote:
Wed, 05 Dec 2018, 18:44
Hello CrOhN
Is there an earth on the neutral at the output of the inverter if not it will go to about 90 volts and can case
it to trip the mains differential.
Yes, it has been running like this for almost 5 years now.
paulvk wrote:
Wed, 05 Dec 2018, 18:44
There needs to be a mains differential safety relay on the output of the inverter
There needs to be a relay that puts an earth on the neutral when the inverter is running
but removes it when connected to the mains as this should then be replaced by the MEN link
this also means it may not be possible to have one on the input of the inverter
due to leakage from slow relay not removing the earth fast enough.

I haven't fitted any diferential on the output, as i haven't shunt the earth and neutral on the output. As i said, almost 5 years like this, with no problem.

paulvk wrote:
Wed, 05 Dec 2018, 18:44
So measure neutral to ground when the inverter is on.
It is around 120V. The problem doesn't happen when on batteries. Only when inverter switches to line bypass. What puzzles me is that i get voltage across earth lead and the earth itself (~120V). But no voltage when i bypass the inverter with the external bypass switch. All earths are common.

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by paulvk » Sat, 08 Dec 2018, 17:15

The reason for the relay on the output to put an earth on the neutral when inverter is on
is because you should have only one earth/neutral link
if there is a permanent one on the output of the inverter
in bypass mode you will end up with two
The neutral coming in is disconnected in inverter mode
so it needs to be applied in inverter mode
It also needs to be before the mains differential safety relay not after it

You have an earthing problem
There should be no voltage difference between neutral and earth
You should also check the neutral relay in the inverter is working

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by CrOhN » Mon, 10 Dec 2018, 16:58

Whel, false alarm on my inverter problem. Yesterday i took a more relaxed diagnosis time. Inverter is fine. Problem was with a power supply i use to equalize the batteries. As it is connected directly to output of the inverter (only a power socket), when i disconnected all the circuit-breakers, it would still trip the differential, because the socket direct connection to the inverter. That's what you get when you diagnose things after a day's work and wife buzzing you because of all the disconnects....

What is the latest firmware i can use with my inverter? I'm on the 52.30 and 1.24SCC.

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by daimyo » Mon, 28 Jan 2019, 05:19

Hi guys.

Oldest of 3 inverters has error 01... fan not working.

What is the simpliest way to replace defective fan?

What fan do i need, what connector on fan?

Do I need to unmount inverter from the wall to replace it?

Thank you and best regards

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb » Mon, 28 Jan 2019, 07:03

daimyo wrote:
Mon, 28 Jan 2019, 05:19
What is the simpliest way to replace defective fan?
Heed this advice from the 2015 model Fan "Rectification" post available from the index in the first post of this topic: "Take out the serial board for much easier access."
What fan do i need, what connector on fan?
See Coulomb's post on the Arctic Cooling fans and their connections (from the index post).
Do I need to unmount inverter from the wall to replace it?
I think it will be tricky but possible.

Note also this post from the index: Original fans put back, due to the fan locked warning issue. It looks like you'll need a fan that has a "movement detected" signal, as opposed to a pulse twice per revolution (I discuss this unproven theory here, two posts after the "original fans put back" post. The easiest way of guaranteeing that might be to replace with actual Adda branded fans (from Ebay perhaps). Further note that there is a small possibility that the fan is OK, but the detection circuit is faulty (there is a very partial schematic trace in the last post mentioned). So you should check whether the fan actually turns or not before replacing it.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by catalincre » Tue, 29 Jan 2019, 00:21

@daimyo can you look on Youtube for that, I have posted a video. Is very easy with the right tool and skills (I'm an obstetrician)....... No I'm not, is a joke. But you get the idea?
Sorry for the mirrored video, was filmed with the front facing camera. You don't need to unmount the inverter from the wall.
@coulomb you can pin the link of this video on first page for reference.
https://youtu.be/tfyhPtyCCE8


[ Edited Coulomb: added [tube] tags for embedded video.

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by daimyo » Wed, 30 Jan 2019, 14:47

Thank You guys so much for answers!

Will try to figure something out. :D

Is there any web place from where to buy original fans? Ebay or...?

Thank you and best regards

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by daimyo » Wed, 30 Jan 2019, 14:49

catalincre wrote:
Tue, 29 Jan 2019, 00:21
@daimyo can you look on Youtube for that, I have posted a video. Is very easy with the right tool and skills (I'm an obstetrician)....... No I'm not, is a joke. But you get the idea?
Forget to ask... what fan did you use as replacement?

Thank You very much and best regards

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by catalincre » Wed, 30 Jan 2019, 16:35

Its shown in video, arctic f8 pwm, this are very quiet. Until now has only two times occurred the fan lock error. And thats long time ago. If you can live with that is fine, you have been warned. Don't forget to reorient the fan to blow upwards, the inverter is much cooler.

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by daimyo » Fri, 01 Feb 2019, 08:14

catalincre wrote:
Wed, 30 Jan 2019, 16:35
Its shown in video, arctic f8 pwm, this are very quiet. Until now has only two times occurred the fan lock error. And thats long time ago. If you can live with that is fine, you have been warned. Don't forget to reorient the fan to blow upwards, the inverter is much cooler.
Thank You... have found it on Ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Arctic-F8-PWM- ... :rk:2:pf:0

Best regards

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by paulvk » Fri, 01 Feb 2019, 18:09

A story about fans>
I have changed all mine so they push air up I have also added two more 120mm fans to the top vents on the inverter drawing air out.
I have used a 12v version of this temperature controller to operate them you could use a 240v version and my friend has aswell
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/LCD-Display ... rk:11:pf:0
I put heatshrink over the probe and inserted it into the AC heatsink fins at the top.
I set it to come on at 43c and go off at 34c.
Now it got to 39.7c ambient the inverter only got to 49c so a good test of the fans they were running non stop!
Note two pips in parallel running 3 split ACs , lights , TV , computer and ceiling fans just on 4000 watts for more than 4 hours.
Yes they make a noise but they keep the temperature down.
I still have the original capacitors.
As I have the older pips with top heatsink I also have a 120mm 12V fan on top running 24/7 from 9V
this made a huge difference to that heatsink it now gets warm never hot!

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by daimyo » Fri, 08 Feb 2019, 06:20

paulvk wrote:
Fri, 01 Feb 2019, 18:09
A story about fans>
I have changed all mine so they push air up I have also added two more 120mm fans to the top vents on the inverter drawing air out.
I have used a 12v version of this temperature controller to operate them you could use a 240v version and my friend has aswell
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/LCD-Display ... rk:11:pf:0
I put heatshrink over the probe and inserted it into the AC heatsink fins at the top.
I set it to come on at 43c and go off at 34c.
Now it got to 39.7c ambient the inverter only got to 49c so a good test of the fans they were running non stop!
Note two pips in parallel running 3 split ACs , lights , TV , computer and ceiling fans just on 4000 watts for more than 4 hours.
Yes they make a noise but they keep the temperature down.
I still have the original capacitors.
As I have the older pips with top heatsink I also have a 120mm 12V fan on top running 24/7 from 9V
this made a huge difference to that heatsink it now gets warm never hot!
Have you consider water cooling? :D

I have no problem with overheating because I have 3 PIPs (12kVA total) and only 5.3kVA PV installed so they do not work in full power mode. :)

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