Imiev measured data

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Imiev measured data

Post by Malm » Mon, 23 Jun 2014, 08:20

Great pictures g4qber.
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Post by acmotor » Mon, 23 Jun 2014, 16:27

So what we need is a mitsi battery engineer on the research team to post a 1 hour vid on YouTube telling us all about the knowledge and logic that went into this incredible battery pack....... OK, I know, just dreaming. Image

At least with the variety of battery care and use methods around we will be able to link cause and effect in the future.

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Post by me68 » Mon, 23 Jun 2014, 23:00

acmotor wrote: So what we need is a mitsi battery engineer on the research team


I'm also dreaming from that to read some more data from the can-bus! Sending mitsu your btcan.db will be a better idea, so all data can be analysed by mitsu.

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Imiev measured data

Post by Malm » Mon, 23 Jun 2014, 23:42

I already know the most important thing. Try to keep them cold, as much as possible. Keep it outside at night, if temperatures drop more then indoor. Follow the temperatures by canion and find the best ways to not have them to hot.

My battery, since 1/10/2013, rarely gone above 30º C, almost of the time under 21º C. With this, my data (the value that I can charge from a specific SoC to full) is the same that it was last October. I believe last 9 months my degradation has been very, very low, not more then 1%.


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Post by acmotor » Tue, 24 Jun 2014, 04:57

Hey Xavier, the canion 120 doesn't read regen amps ???
On same graph canion 119 and earlier show regen amps.
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Post by me68 » Tue, 24 Jun 2014, 19:26

I'll not confirm. Do you have a screenshot?

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Post by acmotor » Wed, 25 Jun 2014, 04:46

At ease, it was just my loopy mobile phone.
Restarted the app and it works again.
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Post by offgridQLD » Fri, 27 Jun 2014, 17:24

Lets see if we can make sense of this.

I have logged about 50+ 104km long trips on Canion. All logged trips start off with the battery at 100% SOC.

At the end if each 104km trip I take a screen shot of the trip data shown by canion.

The key data I am looking at is Total whr out, Total Whr regen, SOC% remaining in the battery.

Below is a example of how I used the above data.

Whr out 14,018
Whr reg 1,749
SOC      19.0%

By subtracting the whr reg from the whr out I get 12,269whr. This is the energy DC whr consumed from the battery. If I then take 12,269whr and + 19.0% to it I get 14,600whr or 14.6kwh.

You could assume that's the DC - kwh my battery can deliver from 100%SOC to 0% SOC.

There is a issue with this. I just picked at random 6 more logs and did the same calculation and I get different numbers each time.

14.6kwh
14.3kwh
13.4kwh
14.3kwh
13.7kwh
14.1kwh

1.2kwh variation. between the lowest and highest.

So where is the error creeping in? Ideas or data I can compare to . Perhaps others could do the same and see what you come up with.

edit: one data point (15.9) was wrong now corrected

Kurt


Last edited by offgridQLD on Fri, 27 Jun 2014, 08:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Johny » Fri, 27 Jun 2014, 17:50

Temperature.
I log all discharge AH and all charge kWH and distances in the Vogue and there is a positive correlation with projected range and temperature.
My projected range goes from 70km (80%DOD) to 85kM from 4deg to 25 deg.

http://electricvogue.blogspot.com.au/20 ... month.html

Recently I started analysing temperature during charging as well.
My charging efficiency varies with overnight temperature (I charge at 3AM->6AM) by about 5% from 5 deg. to 25deg.

Edit: BTW I also note that I drive faster in Winter - I didn't realise this and have started logging travel times.

Edit again: Must not edit!
Last edited by Johny on Fri, 27 Jun 2014, 10:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by me68 » Fri, 27 Jun 2014, 20:33

I checked this out for the C-Zero in April. I got 14.865Wh all over with an avg temp batt of 21,3°C - see also http://67183441.foren.mysnip.de/read.ph ... msg-395517

A second time some weeks later a got out 15.000Wh.

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Last edited by me68 on Fri, 27 Jun 2014, 10:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by offgridQLD » Fri, 27 Jun 2014, 20:50

Interesting did you drive the car to 0% and read 15kwh on Canion or just use calculation with some % soc in the battery to get 15kwh.

Your numbers are reasonably close just 135whr differance between your two tests I think tempreture could do this.my discrepancy are to large I think.

I would put it down to temp and I am sure it has a effect I notice it in winter vs summer range to though it is odd the the lowest and highest number in my example were in the same week and temp was relitivly stable.

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Fri, 27 Jun 2014, 10:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Johny » Fri, 27 Jun 2014, 21:04

offgridQLD wrote:..... though it is odd the the lowest and highest number in my example were in the same week and temp was relitivly stable.
Kurt
Yes I must admit I get utterly erratic economies over a short period. I have over 200 logged discharge/charge cycles now (in SS) to analyse. The short term - even over one month - doesn't show much trend at all.

The short term variations in my case is often caused by other drivers - whether I am "pushed" or not - or whether a little kick of testosterone gets released (usually on the way home).
It's just not as obvious in a fossil fuel guzzler.

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Post by offgridQLD » Fri, 27 Jun 2014, 21:56

Yes I can see your point if your comparing consumption data while driving there are all kinds of variables at play.that's a total different kettle of fish.

I'm not doing that and the consumption data is erelivant for each trip in this test. I could use 1kwh one time and 14 the next and it would make no difference as I am only concerned with total kWh DC available from the battery take it out how ever you like over what ever distance (a Dc kwh capacity test of the battery is what I am doing) I dont even need to drive anywhere I could sit in the garage for 3.5hrs with the 5kw cabin heater on and perform the test.

I think it helps to be familular with Canion and the Imiev to see what I am doing.

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Fri, 27 Jun 2014, 12:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Johny » Fri, 27 Jun 2014, 23:59

Ah - I see. Fair enough. Are you still at the whim of the 16 bar gauge though?

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Post by offgridQLD » Sat, 28 Jun 2014, 00:30

No the the 16 bar gauge isn't used at all other than a visual gide while driving. All measurements are in whrs on a program called Cannion via the obd port with a Bluetooth scanner and android tablet.

Kurt

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Post by Malm » Sat, 28 Jun 2014, 01:35

My value from 0-100 SoC will be the lowest. Not more then 12, for sure. With 11, I think I can ask to Mitsubishi for a new battery. I'm in the 5 years and 100.000 km. If you ask me if i think it is possible to have only 11 kWh in 4 years, I will say that there is an high probability of getting it.
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Post by Adverse Effects » Sat, 28 Jun 2014, 02:58

Malm

i have stopped believing ANYTHING you say

one sec your saying my pack has almost no degradation

a few posts later your saying you may be able to get a new pack because your pack is getting badly degraded

1 post your saying its realy hot for your pack where you are the next one your saying its nice and cool outside to look after your pack

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Post by Malm » Sat, 28 Jun 2014, 04:27

I understand that you see a crook in me. Yes, one second I say my pack is very good, and then I say I can get a new one from Mitsubishi. I will try to explain why I say this, not that I think you will accept my way of thinking. In fact, I like to have someone like you just don't believing in what I say.

This is what I think. The car has to evaluate is capacity by some way. Sometimes it can get it wrong, because that's not a simple process. My car had calculated it's capacity so bad that it only charges something like 15,2 kWh from the wall, this is on a charge from 0 to 100. In the end, 100%, it thinks it is full (it is wrong obviously, because voltages in cells are 4.075, 4,080, and they should be 4,105, 4,11). Well, it is wrong. I can say that because if I try to charge again, when it is at 100%, it will change immediately to a lower SoC and charge more 0,6 kWh. So, my car assumes that can only charge in the battery 11,67 kWh, but in the reality, with some tricks, I can charge it 12,3 kWh. That's the reason why I sometimes say that my battery is bad, and sometimes that it is not so bad.

I had explained that I think some of the degradation that it assumes to have resulted of a period of extreme cold temperatures in this winter that my car never experienced before. If it recalculated today, my capacity should increase, but the car don't do it frequently.

Keep not believing me, makes this interesting.
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Post by offgridQLD » Sat, 28 Jun 2014, 04:27

Well tonight was the coldest conditions I have driven the Imiev in. I noticed the car didn't fully charge was showing 98% on the SOC meter so a little Strange. Perhaps the cold?

Anyhow I could feel I had less capacity and see it on the SOC meter as I fell short of my marker points along the trip. I arrived at my destination with the lowest SOC I have ever recorded. 1 bar - 14% SOC.13.763kw out 1.385kw regen.

So doing the calculation and adding the 14% thats 14.1kwh total capacity. Perhaps a little more as it only charged to 98%.

I look forward to summer again

Kurt

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Post by Malm » Sat, 28 Jun 2014, 04:38

"1 post your saying its realy hot for your pack where you are the next one your saying its nice and cool outside to look after your pack"

Until last summer, without canion, I didn't take to much care with hot temperatures, so it was hot most of the time. Now everything changed, because, for example, I now stop the car at night, always outside (temperatures can go lower then 15º C by night here, and by the early morning, i can get 18 ºC in the battery ), and when the temperatures are hotter, when its possible, I keep it indoor, where temperatures are lower then 25ºC all day.

To believe or not believe, the choice is yours.

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Post by Adverse Effects » Sat, 28 Jun 2014, 05:48

offgridQLD wrote: Well tonight was the coldest conditions I have driven the Imiev in. I noticed the car didn't fully charge was showing 98% on the SOC meter so a little Strange. Perhaps the cold?
Kurt


yep sure is / was cold SE QLD ranged from -7c to 5c last night(may have been higher somewhere but i didnt see it reported on the news)

for the first time in 5 years i put a blanket on my bed

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Post by me68 » Sat, 28 Jun 2014, 20:05

offgridQLD wrote: Interesting did you drive the car to 0% and read 15kwh on Canion or just use calculation with some % soc in the battery to get 15kwh.

Hello Kurt!

I drove it down from 100%SoC to 2%SoC both times with one trip - see screenshots in thread in german forum and calculated to 100%DOD.

I have only done this for this calculation, because i'm not shure that the available capacity via SoC is linear. Maybe you get more capacity out with a diff SoC at high SoC and less at low SoC - i do not know. But it's possible to look to caniOn data to evaluate this.


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Post by me68 » Sat, 28 Jun 2014, 20:13

Malm wrote:Until last summer, without canion, I didn't take to much care with hot temperatures

Hello!

I suspect some cells in your car are degrated much more then the others. So SoC calc/estimate is difficult at all. It's more difficult or impossible if some cells are in poor condition.

It's not clear to me how bms is working/calculating SoC. But if i have a look to your battery, i think it's not working with the weakest cell. But it should. Maybe a high degrated cell has a different characteristic as a cell in good conditition. So it's nearly impossible to calc SoC in this case.

Do you have the possibility to get some cells from a f.e. damaged car and change only the high degrated? I think you can return to 15kWh capacity output again.


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Post by Malm » Sun, 29 Jun 2014, 00:18

I don´t agree. I have some weaker cells, but the difference is not a big one.
The problem that I have with calculation of SoC in my car results of a bad calculation of its real total capacity. It now establish that the maximum charge that is can take inside the battery is something like 11.7 kWh (for it, since last march, 100% SoC is always 11,7 kWh). But that calculation was not well done, because with some tricks (trying to charge little more, run out battery with 4% SoC instead of 0%) I can charge the battery with 13,9 kWh. This value is not far from the most of the i-MiEVs. so a little more worst, and we should expect that, because is older and I had ride it for many, many km in hot temperatures.
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Post by adelaide-ev » Sun, 29 Jun 2014, 04:48

Well last night I fully charged from 2 bars to full. Outside temp 9 degrees and went down to 7 degrees later in the night. It was a cold, wet and windy night.
The 2 bars had started flashing at 18kmRR and I got home at 17kmRR and plugged in straightaway. So just under the 22%SOC>

The pack took 14.11kW from the wall as per my Watts Clever meter. RR went from 17km to 127km. So I guess this is my "winter" reference charge!

Also today drove 11 km on the first bar (temp 13degrees)- has varied in the past from 8km to a record of 18km once for the first bar. Definitely always get more kms from this one than any other bar.

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