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PlanB
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Post by PlanB » Sat, 01 Mar 2014, 21:19

I note Valery has made progress with roll-your-own Chademo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIlZ_1FTJrw but they prefer single phase high current supply stateside. Just wondering about the cheapest way to get 400v DC from a 3 phase outlet in Oz to replace the RAV4? Would the discarded front end of a VFD do the trick? I suppose the isolation problem would rare its ugly head again?


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Post by coulomb » Sun, 02 Mar 2014, 00:58

PlanB wrote: I note Valery has made progress with roll-your-own Chademo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIlZ_1FTJrw


That's impressive, but remember these guys sell high powered chargers.
Just wondering about the cheapest way to get 400v DC from a 3 phase outlet in Oz to replace the RAV4?
It's not clear to me why they were using an EV pack as a power source this time, but they have also done it from a 240 V high current supply. I think there is a three phase version of their charger too; it's more complex because you need three power factor correcting units.

Generating 400 V from the mains at high power is non trivial; it's a high-power power supply, or the front end of their high power charger (the power factor correcting unit). The front end of a VFD would just peak rectify the mains, so you'd end up with almost 600 V and there is no trivial way to convert that to 400 V.
I suppose the isolation problem would rare its ugly head again?
Yes, isolation is a big issue, but the whole CHAdeMO thing is quite complex. It's a big battery charger, with the EV sending you commands for current and voltage; you don't just supply 400 VDC unregulated to the big pins.

I've seen inside a [url=http://www.veefil.com/specifications/]Veefil[/quote] (Tritium made) CHAdeMO/SAE Combo unit. It's jam packed with impressive gold plated computer and water cooled power gear, with an almost car-sized radiator at the bottom. It took them a week to pass certification in Japan; they claim that was the fastest ever. No doubt that was after a year or so of careful design; the week in Japan was just the final tuning to get the certificate.

I'm not saying that DIY CHAdeMO is impossible, though fully compliant, full power CHAdeMO certainly is. I do like their 3D printed connector with the custom metal parts; that's clever stuff if it's done safely. Though I think I'd prefer to pay a bit extra and get a connector that has jumped all the hoops and had all the regulatory checks. The problem may be that you can't get those connectors any other way, unless you are a charging station manufacturer.

It would certainly be nice to hack together say a 12 kW charger at home for a few thousand dollars, if that is in fact possible; perhaps you have to put in a lot of your own labour to make it that inexpensively. That way you have the option of a fast charge those few times you will need one at home. But this is very high end DIY; it's not going to be possible for most people, and few would have the required power connection (say three phase at 20 A, or single phase at 50 A plus the rest of the house).
Last edited by coulomb on Sat, 01 Mar 2014, 14:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Gabz » Mon, 03 Mar 2014, 01:16

coulomb wrote:
I've seen inside a Veefil (Tritium made) CHAdeMO/SAE Combo unit. It's jam packed with impressive gold plated computer and water cooled power gear, with an almost car-sized radiator at the bottom. It took them a week to pass certification in Japan; they claim that was the fastest ever. No doubt that was after a year or so of careful design; the week in Japan was just the final tuning to get the certificate.


I've seen inside a Schneider one, it's more off the shelf M340 plc maglies touch screen, can unit and serial units to talk to the transformer and car.
plenty of breakers and some general I/o RFID unit and Ethernet gateway.
it sorta make it more obvious that with a couple of off the shelf stuff you could make one.. but I didn't look at the transformer. If you started with a VSD, the redesign to CHAdeMO doesn't seem in my head that much of a stretch.

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Post by acmotor » Mon, 03 Mar 2014, 05:30

Some recent VFDs contain CAN bus comms modules and PLCs. They could drive a 1kHz 3 phase isolation transformer into a bridge for DC to the EV. It is that CHAdeMO connector you need.
The 1kHz transformer would scream a bit but would only weigh a few kg. But it would be smaller and cheaper than a 50Hz transformer. The VFD of course could operate at higher frequencies with firmware mods.
Considering the power electronics is therefor not that special, there is scope for rather low cost chargers in the near future. $5k max I'd recon.
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Post by PlanB » Mon, 03 Mar 2014, 17:25

Interesting. I don't know what sort of a job Tritium have done with theirs reliability wise but the Schneiders are a bit hopeless for all that money, the NRMA unit at Strathfield spends more time offline than it does up.

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Post by Gabz » Mon, 03 Mar 2014, 18:50

PlanB wrote: Interesting. I don't know what sort of a job Tritium have done with theirs reliability wise but the Schneiders are a bit hopeless for all that money, the NRMA unit at Strathfield spends more time offline than it does up.


the nrma unit is Aker Wade an american company.

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Post by g4qber » Sat, 22 Mar 2014, 18:44

http://transportevolved.com/2014/03/19/ ... -standard/

IEC likes Chademo

only found out thanks to Transport Evolved
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Last edited by g4qber on Sat, 22 Mar 2014, 07:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Troglodyte » Sat, 22 Mar 2014, 21:22

acmotor wrote: there is scope for rather low cost chargers in the near future. $5k max I'd recon.


Ah so. Does anyone know where they could lay their hands on some relevant circuit diagrams ?? I just might know some sparkie type people capable of messing with that kind of equipment & who have the resources to do it professionally.

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Post by jonescg » Sat, 22 Mar 2014, 22:01

I have just got back from a whirlwind trip to Barcelona / Terrassa where Circontrol manufactures DC fast chargers. It was very interesting and great to see the R+D that is going into the eventual electrification of private transport. I will try to give a presentation at our next AEVA meeting, but one of the funny things is the lack of certainty wien it comes to charging standards. This obviously frustrates the hell out of the charger manufacturers, but even they could see ChaDeMo being around for a long while yet.

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Here's me standing in front of one of their first DC fast chargers, ChaDeMo only. The large box full of electronics is in the building behind the photographer.
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Post by Troglodyte » Sat, 22 Mar 2014, 22:10

'interesting and great to see the R+D that is going into the eventual electrification of private transport'

Presumably the government is slightly more progressive than the ones in Australia

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Post by jonescg » Sat, 22 Mar 2014, 22:14

No, in Spain it's pretty much identical to Australia. No rebates and no publicly funded roll-outs of infrastructure. These guys just happen to make chargers and sell them to nations who are interested, like the UK, Norway, Singapore, Malaysia and the US.

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Post by Troglodyte » Sat, 22 Mar 2014, 22:30

I's still love to get my hands on some circuit diagrams as there are some pretty switched on electrical engineering folk in my circle of associates ... nothing ventured nothing gained and all that. Is effectively turning AC into DC the ONLY way, for instance how about either a humungous solar farm (ie DC output) or an AC motor running a DC generator ??. A 50 amp solar farm might not be 'cheap' but its very simple tried & tested technology that lasts almost forever with stuff-all maintenance.

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Post by jonescg » Sat, 22 Mar 2014, 22:39

It's not the DC supply, it's the cars that are the problem. Auto manufacturers will choose a battery voltage which is appropriate for their application, and this could be 120 V DC, 250 V DC, 360 V DC, or 450 V DC. So the charger needs to be able to vary the output of either the rectified mains or a large battery according to what the smarts of the car tells it. And all this costs a fair bit of money. The IGBTs are expensive and need some sophisticated cooling.

Image
Fast AC is also possible, but no car except the Renault Zoe is able to take advantage of it. And the onboard charger is pretty big and heavy.

These guys were very generous with their information, and they did show me a basic circuit diagram of the main power electronics. The supply is pretty basic - 415 V AC three phase is rectified to DC, and the DC is then chopped to make the appropriate voltage to suit the car as per the Chademo / CCS protocol.
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Post by Troglodyte » Sat, 22 Mar 2014, 23:22

Doesn't sound like it would be beyond the ability of a competent engineer to reproduce. Its certainly not my area although I have a reasonable knowledge of what you are talking about. I'll speak to the relevant people & see what they can come up with. Pity manufacturers couldn't agree on a standard voltage because that would make things more straightforward, but then it took mobile phone designers more than twenty five years to agree on a standard charging connector.

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Post by g4qber » Thu, 10 Apr 2014, 14:57

original DC charge coupler (CC)
http://charge.yazaki-group.com/english/ ... utlet.html

yazaki coming up with next gen CC
http://charge.yazaki-group.com/english/ ... t_neo.html

looks like a star trek original series phaser.

non Yazaki version.
http://www.evcollective.com/dc/
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Post by g4qber » Fri, 11 Apr 2014, 02:08

Here is the 240v single phase link
http://youtu.be/o-Oosm3yjWM

3d printed chademo connector
The rav4 was a demonstration of emergency energy transfer between vehicles.
Ie a "jump start".

Valery had run out of charge .75 miles from home.
So he invented a way to rescue Evs in future.

Takes a Russian to figure out these things.

http://www.revengeoftheelectriccar.com/ ... -miftakhov

20kW Chademo unit to be used at home
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mys5e_E8 ... TaPiCobO_A
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Post by djsharpe » Fri, 22 Jan 2016, 19:26

I use a three phase set of Variacs to control capacitors connected to an induction alternator. The Variacs are rated at 25A. If set at 160V position you could produce 6kVA x 3 x 2/3 = 12kVA for charging a 400V battery. Might serve as a rough non finishing charger. Need 6 diodes on a heat sink & output inductor rated at 30A. Non isolated power supply.You might be able to buy variacs still.Nothing on Ebay.

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Post by neilg » Sat, 23 Jan 2016, 06:41

Quote: "You might be able to buy variacs still. Nothing on Ebay"

If you (or anyone else) is interested I have a open frame 3 phase variac made by Warburton Franki which came out of a large welder many years ago.
I can't find any specs on it on line or from WF.
All windings are intact but the slip rings need attention.
It is very heavy, I never use it now and it's just taking up space so I am willing to give it to a good home if anyone wants it.
I'm in Perth so freight may be costly.

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Post by Adverse Effects » Sat, 23 Jan 2016, 07:49

that thing is cool looking and i bet with a little cleaning it would work as good as the day it was made not to mention its Aussie made Image

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