Which motor is the most powerful?

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Stiive
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Which motor is the most powerful?

Post by Stiive » Sat, 22 Dec 2012, 17:47

And so the testing begins

Image

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coulomb
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Which motor is the most powerful?

Post by coulomb » Sun, 23 Dec 2012, 01:24

Stiive wrote: And so the testing begins...

Aren't you going to introduce us to your shiny new friends? Image

I think I recognise Mr 1PV5135-4WS14 (215 V clan) in the middle.

[ Edit: had the model number mangled. I should know better than to rely on my feeble memory for something like that. ]
Last edited by coulomb on Sun, 23 Dec 2012, 07:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Which motor is the most powerful?

Post by Stiive » Sun, 23 Dec 2012, 02:00

coulomb wrote:
Stiive wrote: And so the testing begins...

Aren't you going to introduce us to your shiny new friends? Image

I think I recognise Mr 1PV5135-SW14 (215 V clan) in the middle.


Yup that's the one (two actually). There's another under the black motor :) Christmas present(s) to myself.
Take a guess the rated power of each, then i'll give part numbers.
Last edited by Stiive on Sat, 22 Dec 2012, 16:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Which motor is the most powerful?

Post by coulomb » Sun, 23 Dec 2012, 04:20

Stiive wrote: There's another under the black motor :) Christmas present(s) to myself.
My.   Image
Take a guess the rated power of each, then i'll give part numbers.
Well, the one on the right looks like a 132 frame, so that could be rated from less than 7.5 to 22 kW. But the 15 and 22 kW motors in that size are unusual and expensive (ask Weber Image ), so I'll go for 7.5 kW @ 50 Hz.

The one on the left suggests a stepper motor, or servo motor, to me. But it could be a regular induction motor; I'll assume the latter, since that's probably what you want to drive with your self-built controller (hope I remembered that right).

I'll resist looking at the ABB catalogues and guess 4 kW nominal. Rounding to horsepower, that would be 3.7 kW. That's probably on the high side, so if I was allowed a second guess, I'd go lower, say 2 kW.

Even with that wide range, I bet I'm wildly off.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
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1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
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Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Which motor is the most powerful?

Post by Stiive » Sun, 23 Dec 2012, 15:03

coulomb wrote: Well, the one on the right looks like a 132 frame, so that could be rated from less than 7.5 to 22 kW. But the 15 and 22 kW motors in that size are unusual and expensive (ask Weber Image ), so I'll go for 7.5 kW @ 50 Hz.


Close. It's a Siemens 95kg aluminium 160 frame 7.5kW.
Model: 1LA9163-6KA61
Break down torque is listed as 190Nm.
From what i've seen, larger 160 frame 7.5kW motors are generally higher efficiency, however this is only rated at 89.5% @ 0.72pf. IE2. Bit upsetting really, but atleast has plenty of back-iron potential.


coulomb wrote: The one on the left suggests a stepper motor, or servo motor, to me. But it could be a regular induction motor; I'll assume the latter, since that's probably what you want to drive with your self-built controller (hope I remembered that right).

The black motor on the left is infact a servo, and i'll be using it for comparison. My controller has no problems controlling PM motors.
Its rated at 4,500 RPM, peak torque 158Nm @ 184A (~75kW!), continuous 45Nm ~22kW, or 65Nm ~31kW with forced air. Weighs 39kg - its a beast, cant wait to test it out! Image



There's another motor in the background on the right (you can just see it) that i have been testing with. It's a 110kg 160L 15kW IE3 motor.
Model: WEG KTE32.
Break down torque is specified at 250Nm.
Have been having fun overloading this - but i'm limited to my battery pack voltage and power


Unfortunately both industrial motors are wound for 400V delta, might have to do something about atleast one of them.

coulomb wrote:
Stiive wrote: There's another under the black motor :) Christmas present(s) to myself.
My.   Image
I wanted to place them all under my christmas tree, but they're a bit hard to move Image Maybe just blacky, she's my favourite anyway Image
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Which motor is the most powerful?

Post by acmotor » Sun, 23 Dec 2012, 17:39

Just thinking...
The PM motor torques are not available to max RPM ?
I could well be wrong with your motor... have you the motor data ?
You'd need the usual over voltage to follow the v/f
up to max RPM.

So max power calc needs to refer to performance curve.
Maybe peak torque is avail to 1500RPM ?
If so then this would divide your kW numbers by three.

How will you load the motors ?
Will you use the WEGKTE32 as a generator with a VFD and feed DC back to your controller etc ? Or go the friction brake ?

This could all be interesting.
Pushing amps in the cause of EVs is sooooo much fun !
Kettle is on. Image
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Which motor is the most powerful?

Post by Stiive » Sun, 23 Dec 2012, 17:47

acmotor wrote: Just thinking...
The PM motor torques are not available to max RPM ?
I could well be wrong with your motor... have you the motor data ?
You'd need the usual over voltage to follow the v/f
up to max RPM.


Max torque is available upto 4,500 RPM but I need 750V DC!!! The max RPM is 6,000. At 400VDC the torque drops off about 3,800 RPM so about ~63kW.
acmotor wrote: How will you load the motors ?
Will you use the WEGKTE32 as a generator with a VFD and feed DC back to your controller etc ? Or go the friction brake ?


Yeh, at home i'll use another motor and feed DC back - need to make up another one of my boards first. I bought 2 of the Siemens to dyno each other.
I also have access to a car dyno

acmotor wrote:This could all be interesting.
Pushing amps in the cause of EVs is sooooo much fun !
Kettle is on. Image


Indeed Image
Just reverted my controller back to stable code and about to go spin em up.
Next stop - 10k RPM on the 1PV5
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Which motor is the most powerful?

Post by acmotor » Sun, 23 Dec 2012, 18:12

Blacky looks good then. Image
Its main issue may be with cooling at those power levels.
Although..
I find that holding speed on a long 10 degree hill (minutes) still only uses 60% torque and 100% torque is rarely applied for more than seconds at the lights or passing so there is little need to push the continuous ratings.

OK, shopping list... some data I'd like to see is
1) the comparative efficiency of the emotors at 10 to 30% power (the range I find my i's motor spends most of its time.
2) the regen efficiency if PM vs induction once again at the 10 to 30% range.
3) the power consumption to hold an RPM at no load with each motor.

No doubt these and many more are on your list already.

In most cases the VFD's code being possibly more important than the motor design ?
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Which motor is the most powerful?

Post by Stiive » Mon, 24 Dec 2012, 00:19

acmotor wrote: Blacky looks good then. Image
Its main issue may be with cooling at those power levels.
Although..


Indeed, although it won't be used in an EV.. by me atleast.
acmotor wrote: I find that holding speed on a long 10 degree hill (minutes) still only uses 60% torque and 100% torque is rarely applied for more than seconds at the lights or passing so there is little need to push the continuous ratings.


Surely this depends on the power of the motor and vehicle weight & aero.

acmotor wrote: OK, shopping list... some data I'd like to see is
1) the comparative efficiency of the emotors at 10 to 30% power (the range I find my i's motor spends most of its time.
2) the regen efficiency if PM vs induction once again at the 10 to 30% range.
3) the power consumption to hold an RPM at no load with each motor.

No doubt these and many more are on your list already.


Haha, yeh happy to release these results. I have a very comprehensive list of things I need to achieve.
Not alot I can do though until I either make a rig to hook it upto the car dyno, or make another inverter. Might put in the order for another set of components after NYE - though i wouldn't mind starting V2.0
acmotor wrote: In most cases the VFD's code being possibly more important than the motor design ?


Yeh, more so inverter "smarts" and tuning the motor to gain optimum efficiency. I'm running sensorless vector control, so its just tweaking from now.
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Which motor is the most powerful?

Post by acmotor » Mon, 24 Dec 2012, 00:29

Sorry, forgot to say the torque observation was for my iMiEV on Bindoon Hill north of Perth (around 10% incline) at 100kmph.
Image
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Which motor is the most powerful?

Post by Stiive » Sun, 30 Dec 2012, 00:32

WOW! Just plugged up the Siemens motor today for the first time and spun her upto 10,000 RPM from my 100V lead acid pack.
Damn she's got alot of inertia! Took ages to get up to speed because I had a 50A per phase current limit on, and took about 5min+ to slow back to stall. I thought something was wrong cus it was just current limiting the whole time unloaded so i did some validation on MATLAB but its correct, just needs alot of current to get anything decent out of her. I'll take her upto 300A in the new year, but didnt want to rush anything today. Pretty happy to have gotten it upto 10k, might have been more because i dont have the encoder hooked up and she started shaking a bit.
Will need to hook up some caps on the DC bus too because there's a heap of switching noise due to the super low inductance, and the lead acids arn't great with ripple. Even starting getting smoke off my 32A breaker, even though I was only pulling <10A DC!?

Might upload a movie of it spinning later, but it'd just be a boring one like my last.
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Which motor is the most powerful?

Post by Richo » Mon, 31 Dec 2012, 04:58

I vote the grey motor!
Well at least if it blows you can go down the road for a rewind.

All you need now is a fleet for cars to convert.
Two of the siemens motor in one car perhaps Image



Edit: fudip keyford
Last edited by Richo on Sun, 30 Dec 2012, 17:59, edited 1 time in total.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Which motor is the most powerful?

Post by Stiive » Fri, 11 Jan 2013, 17:52

Richo wrote: I vote the grey motor!


Light grey (Siemens) or dark grey (WEG)?

Richo wrote: All you need now is a fleet for cars to convert.
Two of the siemens motor in one car perhaps Image


Haha, I wish. The two Siemens will be dyno'ing each other.

Finally I have a free day today to play around and test the 1PV5 some more... but its soo bloody hot I cant be bothered going into the garage.
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Which motor is the most powerful?

Post by Richo » Fri, 11 Jan 2013, 20:55

Dark grey.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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