Red Suzi

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antiscab
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Post by antiscab » Thu, 06 Aug 2009, 08:42

so you can try out james super motor?
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Johny
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Post by Johny » Thu, 06 Aug 2009, 15:56

I suspect inspection for potential rewire is under way. Image

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acmotor
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Post by acmotor » Thu, 06 Aug 2009, 17:08

antiscab wrote: so you can try out james super motor?


In my dreams !

I'd need batteries, controller and gearbox / diff to entertain that thought. Even then, a 1982 sierra wouldn't know what to do with the power. (and be allowed on the road !)

I think Hoops's MX5 would be the best option.

Johny is on to it.
I'm going the re-wind, to 195V delta by the looks of it. The rewinders are looking at the options today.
edit: ended up as 12 wire 100V,173V,200V,346V   see later posts.

Johny, what was your prediction of the optimum voltage ?
Last edited by acmotor on Mon, 24 Aug 2009, 08:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Johny
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Post by Johny » Thu, 06 Aug 2009, 17:36

acmotor wrote:Johny, what was your prediction of the optimum voltage ?
It pretty much comes down to 2 things:
1. what current your controller can deliver
2. what speed range you want maximum acceleration

As you already know, the higher voltage gives you best acceleration down at lower speeds when controller limited.

The 5042 gives you 97.5 Amps which is enough better than my 89 Amps to go for a lower voltage than I requested (220 V with my drive ratios is about 80km/hr at new rated speed).

What I have found using woody SS is that putting rated speed at about 80km/hr gives good performance to 100km/hr

Best performance when controller limited is of course switching star/delta but the following assumes only delta voltage (allowing a star switch). I've assumed 50 x 12V 20Ah SLA, Red Suzi weight - diff etc. If might have not got it exactly right but it looks pretty close to what I'd expect.

Delta V    0-60km/hr     60-100km/hr
150        10.7          9.75
173        9.24          9.4
190        8.4           10.7
200        8.0           12.25
220        7.44          16.75

The 150 volt line is rated speed at 83km/hr in Red Suzi.
If you ever intend to upgrade the controller then bias to a lower voltage - likewise if you intend to go star delta switching.

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Post by Lectrickery » Thu, 06 Aug 2009, 20:08

Image
OH NO acmotor without all that mucky oil to clean up what on earth will you do with all your spare time?
No washing your hands with Grit soap, no preasure cleaning the black marks in the driveway, no degreaser and hose down, no bottles of old oil to sit in the corner of your shed till you find a legal dump site for it, no tool wipe down required? You will be so bored now.
Must make the whole experience of working on Red Suzi so much more enjoyable.

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acmotor
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Post by acmotor » Thu, 06 Aug 2009, 20:29

Image

I also have a Belarus tractor that runs on oil (and some diesel) !
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Post by Squiggles » Thu, 06 Aug 2009, 23:57

Lectrickery wrote: Image
OH NO acmotor without all that mucky oil to clean up what on earth will you do with all your spare time?
No washing your hands with Grit soap, no preasure cleaning the black marks in the driveway, no degreaser and hose down, no bottles of old oil to sit in the corner of your shed till you find a legal dump site for it, no tool wipe down required? You will be so bored now.
Must make the whole experience of working on Red Suzi so much more enjoyable.


The tools will all get rusty!

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Post by Lectrickery » Fri, 07 Aug 2009, 08:18

Image
Ha ha ha no one likes a rusted tool. Will have to invest in some WD40 unless there is a way of protecting all that chrome via ELECTROLYSIS.
I know the size of the arc caused by slamming the shifter across the 12V terminals of a normal car battery imagine making the same with red Suzis 576 Volts system.
Image The results would be ........
Dare I say it .....
Shocking

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Richo
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Post by Richo » Fri, 07 Aug 2009, 09:27

acmotor wrote:I'm going the re-wind, to 195V delta by the looks of it. The rewinders are looking at the options today.


I'd be interested in the rewinders thoughts of winding to odd voltages
as I just let them rewind mine to the easiest voltage for them.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by Squiggles » Fri, 07 Aug 2009, 14:09

Lectrickery wrote: Image
Ha ha ha no one likes a rusted tool. Will have to invest in some WD40 unless there is a way of protecting all that chrome via ELECTROLYSIS.
I know the size of the arc caused by slamming the shifter across the 12V terminals of a normal car battery imagine making the same with red Suzis 576 Volts system.
Image The results would be ........
Dare I say it .....
Shocking


I know a chap who has a faint scare on his hand that says sidchrome in reverse. Shorted the terminals on a 110V battery in an electrical substation, spanner got very hot very quickly.
Also met a chap from France who is a technician for Merlin Gerin UPS, he is blind in one eye thanks to an accident with a 450v battery.
Moral of the story is BE CAREFUL

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Post by Tritium_James » Fri, 07 Aug 2009, 14:41

Yes, wear your safety glasses! With a floating pack it's relatively hard to electrocute yourself, but depending on pack layout, still quite easy to accidentally short two parts of the pack together with a tool or stray cable. When it gets vapourised (and it will) the molten chunks of metal flying everywhere can do some serious damage. Wear your safety glasses!

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acmotor
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Post by acmotor » Sat, 08 Aug 2009, 03:27

Squiggles, you correctly point out that spanners across batteries are the big issue.
Battery packs that contain > maybe 72V when assembled are a problem to work on even without dropping a spanner across the terminals. Floating or not you can electrocute or vapourise.

That is why red suzi and Mal's ute both use battery breakup to 48V modules (that are floating themselves) when the ign is off, interia switch activated, Estops pressed etc.
I still say floating a 120V+ pack does not make it as safe as people may think, particulary not without leakage detection. Go for pack breakup and floating modules !
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Post by Squiggles » Sat, 08 Aug 2009, 04:31

I reckon their is a variety of ways to make batteries less dangerous.
Obviously restricting access to exposed terminals is paramount.
Breaking them up is fine, but even 48V can give you serious burns if you short the contacts, assuming the battery can provide a high fault current.

Maybe the contactors should be normally closed and interlocked with the battery box cover. So that they energise only when the box is open and break the circuit. That way they don't add load to the battery in normal use, if the battery does not have enough charge to open the contacts it is hardly likely to cause any harm.


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Post by acmotor » Sat, 08 Aug 2009, 06:12

Batteries are like guns. They are not dangerous themselves, it is the people who use them. Lock them away (all 3 !) Yes restrict access.

Re contactors...
Normally open (power off = safe) mode is fine. I am not alone in using that mode for pack breakup. 12 contactors draw total 2A off 12V. Given the 12kWh of battery pack, 0.2% power used by contactors over 1 hour is a small price to pay for safety that people with non breakup 240VDC packs can only dream of !
I considered lid switches on the battery boxes in red suzi and ran wires for that purpose but didn't connect since I pondered just how many 'shutdown' options would be advisable. In a general consumer world it would be a smart move to have lid switches.

As it stands, cut the 12V anywhere from the aux battery on and there is only 48V (floating) left inside locked ('restricted' access, well labelled) battery boxes. No doubt, could be safer. Might be worth looking at when the rest of the EV world catches up with safe practice !
We haven't even got compulsary earth leakage detection yet !

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acmotor
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Post by acmotor » Sun, 09 Aug 2009, 17:10

Johny wrote: ..... If you ever intend to upgrade the controller then bias to a lower voltage - likewise if you intend to go star delta switching.


Thanks Johny and Woody, the kings of data, for the input. I've not yet come to grips with the SSwoody though , enought columns to build the Parthenon !

Good prompt on the 12 Wire connection Woody. The rewinder said can do at 100/173 , 200/346 on my motor as they have a design for that.

I've gone for 2 sets of thermistors, one at 130degC and one at 150degC as well as a Ktype thermocouple as used in the little 104V motor.

The rotor is being balanced for 6000RPM and the bearings relpaced with sealed units rated for 6000RPM.

I will be controller limited for now, but with plenty of future option.
If the little motor tests extrapolate to this 11kW unit then something like 44kW cont. at 6000RPM and 132kW peak are possible. Now TJ, about that 200kW controller !

Star delta switching is on the drawing board.

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Post by Johny » Sun, 09 Aug 2009, 17:35

acmotor wrote:The rewinder said can do at 100/173 , 200/346 on my motor as they have a design for that.
If that means (and I think it does) that you can get any of those voltages due to a 12 wire connection, that will give you just about every realistic voltage that you would want.
The 200/346 would be great star/delta switching with the 5042 until you get a bigger controller.

If you want to be able to switch to any voltage combination on the fly, I can see the contactor array being bigger than the motor!

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Post by acmotor » Sun, 09 Aug 2009, 19:41

All the voltages 100,173,200 and 346 are independently available. ( it was an extra cost ).

Keeping in mind if anyone is reading this that if the controller (and batteries) were capable of at least 220A, I'd just connect for 100V and have 216Nm torque 0-6000RPM (132kW peak). That's 120kmph in Hi ratio. 6.5:1 to rear wheels (1404Nm). Just dreaming for now, its probably somewhere less than that anyway.
An MX5 or something would be a better platform.

Yes, the 200/346 is my target at present, with star delta if required.
Mind you, this is not much better than a US/Japan voltage motor anyway, but still cheaper than importing one and I know this motor bolts straight back in. (It took 15 minutes to take it out ... beats an ICE !)

I still have the transfer case with 6.5:1 or 10.5:1 to the wheels up my sleeve (although not changeable on the fly)

So, some cleaver star delta switching ideas and proceedure ?

I was thinking some sequence of preselect as used on some older trucks/busses. Preselect star or delta then take your foot off. Controller coasts, contactors change, controller picks up RPM, then plant the foot again.
Contol knows that if you have 'preselected' not to enable regen until after foot has been planted again.

eaditt: usual problem !
Last edited by acmotor on Mon, 24 Aug 2009, 08:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by coulomb » Mon, 10 Aug 2009, 04:28

acmotor wrote: If the little motor tests extrapolate to this 11kW unit then something like 44kW cont. at 6000RPM
With hurricane cooling, perhaps...
and 132kW peak are possible. Now TJ, about that 200kW controller !

Remember that the Tritium controller is 400 VDC max. So you won't be able to overvoltage the motor to the full extent.

That is, until we twist TJ's arm to do an 800 VDC max version of his controller.   Image
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Post by acmotor » Mon, 10 Aug 2009, 04:35

It is probably a fair question why prius have gone from 500 to 650V MkII to MkIII in boost voltage. Same current in controller, more power, more RPM ? (Battery current increases of course)

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Post by acmotor » Tue, 25 Aug 2009, 03:23

Wahoo, emotor is back from winder ....



Image



Image



200V series delta, 346V series star shown.

(can also be 100V parallel delta, 173V parallel star)



The small terminal block is for 130 deg and 150 deg thermistors and K-type thermocouple temperature sensor.



I'll go a fresh coat of paint and put it back in suzi ! Image

(actually clean as much of the old layers of paint off first for best cooling)
Last edited by acmotor on Sat, 11 Feb 2012, 07:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by vince » Tue, 25 Aug 2009, 05:59

Would you mind sharing/explaining the difference between rewirng to create the same effect as rewinding or what it is i'm not getting?Safe to say not much!
By the by,were you refering to coal as the diamond in the ruff or the stick in the mud or just something to be left buried?

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Post by acmotor » Tue, 25 Aug 2009, 06:13

The latter.   It seems to be a missed point by the environmental lobby. Image

Re-wiring is what I did with the little 0.37kW motor to make it 104V rather than 415V. here . This allows 4 x the frequency and revs and thus power continuous. i.e. it was 50Hz motor... now 200Hz motor. With the 3 x torque available normally from the motor, this gave 12 x original power as the new peak power.

Rewinding is what I had done with the 11kW motor since the windings were not suitable to re-connect to 1/2 or 1/4 voltage. (windings were heavily varnished and coil arrangement did not suit re-wire). All the windings were removed and new ones fitted.

If you are not certain what that means vince, just think 'more is better' Image
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Post by vince » Tue, 25 Aug 2009, 08:27

Do i understand correctly,since you have rewound this motor you are now,if you so desired, capable of rewiring to a lowr voltage?
More is better is good enough for me.

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Post by coulomb » Tue, 25 Aug 2009, 15:31

Well, sort of. It is now possible to trivially (in the terminal box without opening the motor) reconfigure to any of 346/200/173/100 VAC.

What I think of as "rewiring" is opening up the motor and changing the internal wiring from series to parallel. The limitation with this is, if the windings are already in parallel for 400 V (as my $85 motor was), then you can't rewire for lower voltage, just for higher voltage (and the insulation wouldn't take it anyway). So that's why acmotor didn't do the much cheaper rewire option - just not possible on some motors.
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Post by Johny » Tue, 25 Aug 2009, 16:39

That's a really nice testbed motor now.
Guessing time.
Here are some acceleration projections for Red Suzi with old motor winding and new motor winding.
Assumes 1063kg, 50 SLAs and Danfoss 5042 with no torque boost. Final drive 6.5:1, wheel radius 344mm. Rated motor torque 72.5, B/d torque x3.
The figures are seconds to accelerate to given speed.

Speed km/hr       50    60    70    80    90    100
Winding voltage
415               7.3   12.6   24   630   -     -
200               6.6   8     9.6   11.7   14.5   19

It indicates that Red Suzi should never have been able to make 80 km/hr with the previous motor winding.
The 200V figures would allow very respectable acceleration, keeping up with all traffic I encounter to/from my drive to work including tollway entry and exit.

If possible I would love flat and level, NO torque boost verification of the 200V figures - then "all you've got" figures. Maybe even v/f vs vector mode if possible. (Here we go again - Johny wants DATA! Mine won't be on the road until Christmas due to restoration aspects)

It would really give us some solid data to compare with the spreadsheet data.
(Data courtesy of woody's spreadsheet)

Edit: Added "figures are seconds..."
Last edited by Johny on Tue, 25 Aug 2009, 06:40, edited 1 time in total.

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