Rolf's 1959 Puch SR150 scooter

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Rolf
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Rolf's 1959 Puch SR150 scooter

Post by Rolf » Mon, 08 Jul 2019, 11:17

Chassis: 1959 Puch SR150 Scooter
Motor: Motoenergy ME0909
Controller: Alltrax SR484300

Batteries....

Thinking Headways.
Am I right to think that 3 packs of 15 headways (48V) will give me 24Ah are enough power to get me to work and back. Round trip is 15Km. Can I get away with 2 packs of 15 @ 16Ah? I'm not really clear on the calculations, but I based this estimation on Richo's comment in Soyachip's FZR250 thread.

Ideally, I would like to be able to do 100Km/h, but hope I can set this up with gearing via chain cogs.

I may have gone a bit big on the motor, but believe I can detune it with the SR controller?

PS. I'm a noob. Car Mechanic, Classic scooter enthusiast, and think I have a basic understanding of electronics.
Last edited by Rolf on Mon, 08 Jul 2019, 14:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1959 Puch SR150 scooter

Post by Richo » Mon, 08 Jul 2019, 12:23

Rolf wrote:
Mon, 08 Jul 2019, 11:17
I would like to be able to do 100Km/h, but hope I can set this up with gearing via chain cogs.
What size are the tyres?
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Re: 1959 Puch SR150 scooter

Post by Richo » Mon, 08 Jul 2019, 12:38

Rolf wrote:
Mon, 08 Jul 2019, 11:17
Round trip is 15Km. Can I get away with 2 packs of 15 @ 16Ah?
but I based this estimation on Richo's comment in Soyachip's FZR250 thread.
Oh Jeez people listen to me :oops:
So I based it on the specs on the Zero which is similar to Soyachips bike.
I'd kinda hope that it would fair slightly better for a scooter.

In any case if we did assume 50-100Wh/km depending on usage:
15km x 50Wh/km = 750Wh
15km x 100Wh/km = 1500Wh.

This needs to be the "useable" capacity.
Taking into account 80% depth of discharge (DOD) this becomes a pack capacity of 940Wh - 1875Wh.
Minimum.

So I'd think 2 packs of 15 cells @ 16Ah would be cutting it quite fine.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Re: 1959 Puch SR150 scooter

Post by Richo » Mon, 08 Jul 2019, 12:52

Rolf wrote:
Mon, 08 Jul 2019, 11:17
Motor: Motoenergy ME0909
Ideally, I would like to be able to do 100Km/h, but hope I can set this up with gearing via chain cogs.
The ME0909 is rated for 4.8HP/3.5kW continuous.
Which perhaps around 65kph continuous.

So you might be able to get to 100kph but you'd be hitting the peak of the motor.
The peak is 11kW for 30secs.
So 100kph for 15-20 seconds?

Is this what your were hoping for?
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Re: 1959 Puch SR150 scooter

Post by Rolf » Mon, 08 Jul 2019, 13:41

Hi Richo,
The tyres are 12 inch.

I'll check on how much space I have and see if I can fit 4 packs in, unless there is a better suggestion on which batteries to use?

So max continuous current is 72A? (Based on 48V and 3500W) Once it runs, I'll play with the gearing with an amp meter connected if this makes sense. I find that with only weighing 70Kg, I can get more speed out of ICE scooters than my friends.

But if I can cruise at 65km/h, then That will do. I was hoping for more, but as a first project, I was wanting to keep it at 48V for safety reasons. My understanding is that speed is relative to voltage. Is this correct?

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Re: 1959 Puch SR150 scooter

Post by Richo » Tue, 09 Jul 2019, 12:32

Rolf wrote:
Mon, 08 Jul 2019, 13:41
So max continuous current is 72A? (Based on 48V and 3500W)
I think 3.5kW was the output/mechanical power.
Input would probably be closer to 90A.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Re: 1959 Puch SR150 scooter

Post by Richo » Tue, 09 Jul 2019, 12:38

Rolf wrote:
Mon, 08 Jul 2019, 13:41
The tyres are 12 inch.

Once it runs, I'll play with the gearing
So I was more after the circumference of the tyre.
I can work out what the ratio should roughly be.
Normally the tyres have the width and aspect ratio printed on them.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Re: 1959 Puch SR150 scooter

Post by Richo » Tue, 09 Jul 2019, 12:43

Rolf wrote:
Mon, 08 Jul 2019, 13:41
I'll check on how much space I have and see if I can fit 4 packs in
I'm not too sure what you mean by packs.
Normally batteries are put in parallel then connected in series.
You shouldn't have a 48V pack that is connected in parallel with another 48V pack.

If they are 15Ah each 4 packs is 60Ah which is about the same as a leaf module.
How many you put in series depends on the controller limits.

Also LTO's are almost on par cost wise to headways and maybe a better option.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Re: 1959 Puch SR150 scooter

Post by Richo » Tue, 09 Jul 2019, 12:59

Rolf wrote:
Mon, 08 Jul 2019, 13:41
My understanding is that speed is relative to voltage. Is this correct?
Mostly.
The motor you picked out has an RPM constant of 93.45 RPM/V.
So the more voltage the more RPM.

BUT the formula for power requirements versus speed for your scooter is exponential.
So there will be a point that they intersect and adding more voltage wont help you.

TBH I'd be more inclined to use the other controller that has the higher voltage just because it has more options even if you don't use them.

SR48xxx: 12-48V Nominal Battery Pack Voltage, 62VDC Max
SR72xxx: 12-72V Nominal Battery Pack Voltage, 92VDC Max

With 62V max on the SR48 that's 16 headway cells (51.2V nom) or 7 Leaf modules (53.2Vmon).
With 92V max on the SR72 that's 25 headway cells (80.0V nom) or 10 leaf modules (76.0V nom).

Both would be tingly if you touch them.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Re: 1959 Puch SR150 scooter

Post by Richo » Wed, 10 Jul 2019, 12:59

Rolf wrote:
Mon, 08 Jul 2019, 13:41
But if I can cruise at 65km/h, then That will do
So given you're on a scooter not a Zero.
You're only doing 65kph not 100kph.

So the 1875Wh perhaps becomes 1500Wh BUT then add another 25% for margin this is back to 1875Wh.
At 48V this is a 40Ah battery.
Well here are the 40Ah LTO's.
https://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?p=73505#p73505
You'd need 20 of them for 48V.
$1394.

Now if you bought the higher voltage controller and the pack wasn't quite big enough you could just put a few extra in series.
No need to parallel the pack at all.
And you would then also get a increase in your continuous speed.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Re: Rolf's 1959 Puch SR150 scooter

Post by Richo » Wed, 10 Jul 2019, 13:01

Oh and your cycle life will go from 2,000 to 20,000.
Win - win.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Re: Rolf's 1959 Puch SR150 scooter

Post by Rolf » Wed, 10 Jul 2019, 15:43

Thanks Richo,

I already have the controller :(
I started this project almost two years ago and got sidetracked. A bit has changed in what’s available since then. Back then, I did do all the calculations for gearing and set it up to do a bit over 100km/h at full RPM. I know it may seem a lot for a scooter with 12 inch tyres, but my main ride is a 1959 Vespa that has had it’s engine kitted up to do 120km/h on 10 inch wheels!

Thanks for pointing out about not using separate packs. Makes sense. Did I mention I’m a noob?

I did read up on LTO’s and they seem heavy for the output. But is it true that they are so stable that they don’t need a BMS. I read that somewhere on the internet and, well, everything on the internet is true! Not that I don’t want to learn how to set up a BMS.

I also researched Nissan Leaf cells and like the idea. I’ll check on the weekend if I can fit them into the space. How hard are they to source?

As for the overall project, I’m more concerned with the outcome rather than the cost.

I appreciate your input Richo.

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Re: Rolf's 1959 Puch SR150 scooter

Post by Richo » Thu, 11 Jul 2019, 12:39

I suggest getting some cardboard or foam and mocking up the motor in place.
Then you can see how much room is left for batteries.
I'd suspect this will determine what batteries you can use and how many.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Re: Rolf's 1959 Puch SR150 scooter

Post by Rolf » Sun, 21 Jul 2019, 19:43

Some progress

Image

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Re: Rolf's 1959 Puch SR150 scooter

Post by Richo » Mon, 22 Jul 2019, 12:22

Nice!
Is that the controller I see in there too..
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Re: Rolf's 1959 Puch SR150 scooter

Post by Rolf » Mon, 22 Jul 2019, 15:08

Richo wrote:
Mon, 22 Jul 2019, 12:22
Nice!
Is that the controller I see in there too..
Yes, the controller isn't fully mounted, but that's where I plan for it to go. Plenty of battery space above. Still looking for the best power to weight battery pack I can put in. There isn't that much difference between the LTOs you mentioned and Headways. (Assuming I calculated correctly)

48V 40Ah- headways (64 of them) would weigh 21.1Kg
48V 40Ah- LTOs (20 of them) would weigh 24Kg


Then there is the BMS.
For the Headways I was thinking this one-, 200A48V https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3288838 ... 2e0erQp4ZA
For the LTOs, would this one work? 20S 48V200A https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3292717 ... 6d6a6FHheF

I had been thinking of painting the scooter to look like new and I mentioned it to my wife. She was horrified, saying that she loved the idea of old meets new. Looks like it will be a rat!

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Re: Rolf's 1959 Puch SR150 scooter

Post by Richo » Tue, 23 Jul 2019, 12:50

Richo wrote:
Mon, 08 Jul 2019, 12:52
The peak is 11kW for 30secs.
Accounting for some looses thats ~260A into the controller.
The 150A LTO BMS cuts out at 200A.
The 200A LTO BMS cuts out at 360A.

Is your controller the SR483 or SR484?
The SR483 is 300/350A.
The SR484 is 400/460A.

Either way I think the 200A LTO BMS looks correct.
The LiFEPO4 BMS looks correct too.

There will be more interconnects on the headway pack so the lighter weight will be eaten up by the extra busbars.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Re: Rolf's 1959 Puch SR150 scooter

Post by francisco.shi » Wed, 24 Jul 2019, 19:24

48v 63Ah LG cells (12 in series) just under 12kg.

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Re: Rolf's 1959 Puch SR150 scooter

Post by Rolf » Sat, 27 Jul 2019, 12:30

I checked out to see if I could fit 20 LTOs in. Turns out that they are about the size of an aerosol can. After failing to see how they could fit by measuring, I found 20 aerosols cans to see if I could jam them in. I was three short, and the other 17 were a squeeze.

I have ordered enough headway cells to make a 30Ah 48V pack to get me going. I may look at the LG batteries in the future, depending on how my current draw pans out. I received a 48V to 12V 120W converter this week. I also have a cycle analyst on the way. It’s all moving forward.

I have a future project in mind that I can move the headway cells to, but that’s a different story.

Image

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Re: Rolf's 1959 Puch SR150 scooter

Post by Richo » Mon, 29 Jul 2019, 12:25

So many cans
Lucky tho.
So really your scooter decided the batteries your just along for the ride :lol:
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Re: 1959 Puch SR150 scooter

Post by soyachips » Fri, 04 Oct 2019, 21:28

OK so it's a bit late so my brain's not working but I was having trouble reading this:
Richo wrote:
Mon, 08 Jul 2019, 12:38
Oh Jeez people listen to me :oops:
I thought it was "Oh Jeez people ... listen to me!" hahahaha

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Re: Rolf's 1959 Puch SR150 scooter

Post by soyachips » Fri, 04 Oct 2019, 21:31

Loving this conversion ... have you received the Headways yet? Out of interest, where did you get them from? I may need to get some replacement/spares

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