Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

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Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips » Wed, 17 Apr 2019, 20:18

Chassis: 1989 Yamaha FZR250 2KR
Motor: QS 273 6000W V3 hub motor
Speed Controller: Kelly KLS7250H
Batteries: TBD

Top Speed: TBD
Range: TBD

So it’s been a while but I’m at the beginning stages of my next project. Just bought the donor bike and waiting for it to be transported interstate. Also waiting for the motor to be sent down from China so in the next couple of weeks I should be able to get started. Wohoo!

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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by Richo » Thu, 18 Apr 2019, 13:05

All sounds very nice :mrgreen:

So max is about 24 LiFePO4, 32 LTO, 6 SLA.
The motor seems to be rated to 12kW peak, the controller more.
So 20Ah minimum or >1.5kWh

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/30pcs-2 ... 69826.html
The 40Ah LTO are ~$64 in a lot of 30 (72V nom).
That's ~25km range.
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by Richo » Thu, 18 Apr 2019, 13:13

Headways will cost 20% more than LTO's.
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips » Thu, 18 Apr 2019, 17:24

Cool thanks, those LTO batteries seem pretty good. According to Battery University they have the following characteristics
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Seems like they’ve improved cost since that was written?

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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips » Sat, 20 Apr 2019, 21:11

Richo wrote:
Thu, 18 Apr 2019, 13:05
That's ~25km range.
Hi Richo, just wanted to check how you did that calculation. Is this right?

30 cells x 2.3V = 69V x 40Ah = 2.76kWh x 0.8 DOD = 2.208kWh / 88Wh per km = 25km

Thanks!

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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips » Sun, 21 Apr 2019, 23:27

So I originally thought about doing an electric cafe racer motorbike as there’s something appealing about the way they strip everything back to just the essentials and expose the way it all works but I struggled with how to make the batteries look good. In general, EV batteries don’t look that good so I then changed tack and started looking a bikes with fairings so I could hide them! I’m also keen to use a hub motor to simplify the conversion and leave plenty of space for everything else. The other thing I am trying to do is make this as easy as possible to get an engineer’s certificate for the conversion. I spoke to a few engineers about the project and a common theme was don’t touch the brake system otherwise you’ll need to do brake testing which could add another $3,000 :o

I had read good things about hub motors from QS Motor and they have a pretty extensive range of options. The bad thing was the hole pattern for mounting the brake rotor seemed non-standard so I thought I’d have to use the rotor that comes with the motor which is 220mm. So some more research to find bikes that use that size rotor on the rear and fairings to hide the batteries. The other thing was using a frame that has a cradle under the engine so when I take the the engine out it’s still structurally ok. Most new bikes seem to use the engine as part of the structure so that ruled out a whole lot of newer bikes. This really narrowed down the options so I finally settled on a late 80’s Yamaha FZR250 as my donor bike and proceeded to buy a swingarm and rear brake bits from a wrecker to do some prototyping.

Below are some photos of 3D printed custom axles to get everything fitting and the wheel centred and modifying the slots in the swingarm where the axle normally goes through into dropouts like on a push bike so I can get the motor in. On motorbikes the axle gets inserted through the swingarm into the wheel but on the QS hub motors the axle is fixed in the wheel.
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips » Sun, 21 Apr 2019, 23:40

I also tested where the rear rotor would end up relative to the existing brake calliper and mounting bracket setup. In the prototype below everything looked like it was going to line up but then I realised the wheel was a bit off centre! So after fixing that, I will now have to use an adapter plate between the motor and the brake rotor to line everything up ... which means I wasn’t limited to using a bike with the size of brake rotor that comes with the motor in the first place!
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips » Sun, 21 Apr 2019, 23:54

Because the axle is built into the motor and needs to be held firm while the motor spins, there will be a lot of torque where the axle passes through the swingarm. To make this stronger I’m going to use solid blocks of aluminium? inside the swingarm. The tolerances need to be quite tight as there are acceleration and regen torque forces that need to be counteracted.
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips » Mon, 22 Apr 2019, 00:01

Here are some pics of the custom axle and motor
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips » Mon, 22 Apr 2019, 00:12

This is the donor bike I just bought. The previous owner put a lot of TLC into it so it looks like it’s in really good condition. As mentioned I selected this bike because of the size of the rear rotor :lol: but turns out it’s a really good bike and one of the better 250’s from that era.
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by Richo » Tue, 23 Apr 2019, 12:48

soyachips wrote:
Sat, 20 Apr 2019, 21:11
Is this right?
30 cells x 2.3V = 69V x 40Ah = 2.76kWh x 0.8 DOD = 2.208kWh / 88Wh per km = 25km
Yep for the most part.
The nominal for an LTO is usually 2.4V so 69V becomes 72V.
I did see they claimed 2.3V - not too sure why.

Just as a rule of thumb since it exists and are claiming it.
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-srf/
Under full specs it says 12600Wh usable capacity and 82miles/132km highway usage(113kph).
This works out to 95Wh/km or about 25km range on the 30 cells.

The other side was 12600Wh and 161miles/260km for city usage.
This is 50Wh/km.
So the 30 cells of LTO 40Ah is 72V x 40Ah = 2880Wh x 0.8 DOD = 2304Wh / 50Wh = 46km.

So there is nearly double the difference depending on how you ride.
But at least it is a place to start.
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips » Tue, 23 Apr 2019, 21:47

Richo wrote:
Tue, 23 Apr 2019, 12:48
The other side was 12600Wh and 161miles/260km for city usage.
This is 50Wh/km.
So the 30 cells of LTO 40Ah is 72V x 40Ah = 2880Wh x 0.8 DOD = 2304Wh / 50Wh = 46km.

So there is nearly double the difference depending on how you ride.
But at least it is a place to start.
That’s great, thanks for clarifying. I briefly had a Fonzarelli and that got ~50km from a 1650Wh pack = 33Wh per km which is really impressive. It’s pretty light and more for city usage which helps it get those numbers. My bike will be a bit heavier but will be mostly city usage.

I ran some numbers for different battery options and based range on 60Wh/km. Let me know if anything looks horribly wrong. The cost I’ve used for the Leaf batteries is probably way too low as I can’t even find any in Australia!
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Last edited by soyachips on Tue, 23 Apr 2019, 22:08, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips » Tue, 23 Apr 2019, 21:59

Also the motor arrived today and nervously checked to make sure the custom axle fits into the swingarm and thankfully it does!
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Next steps are to install the brake and work out an adapter plate to attach the bike’s original brake rotor to the motor. Also need to make up some blocks to hold the axle in the swingarm and some kind of bracket to hold all of this so I can do some bench testing.

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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by francisco.shi » Wed, 24 Apr 2019, 07:12

I am trying to get a group buy for some LG 63Ah cells. Would you consider getting some?
Here is the link to threads about the cells.

https://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.ph ... 09&p=71943

https://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.ph ... =25#p71556

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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by jonescg » Wed, 24 Apr 2019, 07:45

60 Wh/km is probably about right for a bike this size. My scooter is in that range, and even the electric Superbike will manage 60 Wh/km if you ride at road legal speeds. Looking forward to seeing this turn a wheel.
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by antiscab » Wed, 24 Apr 2019, 07:52

soyachips wrote:
Tue, 23 Apr 2019, 21:47
I briefly had a Fonzarelli and that got ~50km from a 1650Wh pack = 33Wh per km which is really impressive. It’s pretty light and more for city usage which helps it get those numbers. My bike will be a bit heavier but will be mostly city usage.

I ran some numbers for different battery options and based range on 60Wh/km. Let me know if anything looks horribly wrong. The cost I’ve used for the Leaf batteries
My Emax was same size as the fonzareli and use to get around 33wh/km too.

My Vectrix gets around 70wh/km around town and 85wh/km at 100kmh. I suspect my Vectrix is around same size as your project, though may be heavier as its battery is 95kg on its own.
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips » Wed, 24 Apr 2019, 11:26

francisco.shi wrote:
Wed, 24 Apr 2019, 07:12
I am trying to get a group buy for some LG 63Ah cells. Would you consider getting some?
Thanks but I'm not sure I'm up to building a pack from pouch cells ... I think I'm more of a bolt together kind of a guy ;)

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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by francisco.shi » Wed, 24 Apr 2019, 12:28

I can build the pack for you and wire the BMS if you give me dimensions.

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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by Richo » Wed, 24 Apr 2019, 12:35

soyachips wrote:
Tue, 23 Apr 2019, 21:47
The cost I’ve used for the Leaf batteries is probably way too low as I can’t even find any in Australia!
Yeah I bought leaf cells for my Handi and shortly after the market dried up.
Barring a few on fleabay at unrealistic prices.
Don't forget that the leaf cells are 2nd hand.

This is why this thread peaked my interest.
http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?p=72427#p72427
Nissan can obviously supply new packs at a good price.
Its just a case of loosening their tight fists.
Well I shouldn't say "Nissan" since they sold the battery manufacturing section off.

Would leaf cells actually fit your bike?
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips » Wed, 24 Apr 2019, 22:13

Richo wrote:
Wed, 24 Apr 2019, 12:35
Would leaf cells actually fit your bike?
No idea ... I’m waiting for the bike to come down from QLD to see what space I have to play with but that’s a good point, they do look pretty big.

Those Yinlong LTO cells look pretty good, have you used them on a project before? From what I’ve read, the main downside is lower energy density but it doesn’t seem too bad compared to LiFePO4.

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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips » Wed, 24 Apr 2019, 22:17

francisco.shi wrote:
Wed, 24 Apr 2019, 12:28
I can build the pack for you and wire the BMS if you give me dimensions.
Sounds interesting, I’ll PM you what I’m after. Thanks!

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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips » Wed, 24 Apr 2019, 22:19

@jonescg and @antiscab thanks for the info. Good to validate with real world numbers!

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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips » Sun, 12 May 2019, 16:41

Received the bike last week and started removing the ICE related bits that I won't be needing. One thing that I didn't expect to find was the coolant runs through the frame of the bike. There's a bolt on the lowest part of the frame used to drain the coolant out which I've done but now I'm wondering if the inside of the frame might start rusting without the coolant to protect it. Does anyone have any experience with this or thoughts on whether or not it could be an issue?
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips » Tue, 14 May 2019, 21:54

In my excitement to get started, I forgot to weigh the front and back to get the weight distribution of the original bike before taking it apart :o

So after putting everything except the seat and fairings back on and picking up a couple of bathroom scales from Bunnings, I now have the numbers

Front: 69.0 kg
Rear: 71.4 kg
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips » Thu, 30 May 2019, 21:51

Made some more progress removing the engine from the frame. The engine weighs 40kg.
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