Alternator

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offgridQLD
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Post by offgridQLD » Tue, 01 Mar 2016, 01:52

Ok it's not a EV but it is a electric motor of sorts and it's automotive relatedImage

I have a Japanese diesel tractor that has needed a Alternator for years. To date I have just jump started it from a 12v cabl lifepo4 bank and being a primitive diesel it runs fine without a battery.

Luck would have it that I stumbled across a genuine (rare) Hitachi alternator brand new old stock for my rare model tractor at about 1/5 the going price.

So all chuffed I fitted it up. Oh it looked so shiny and pristine and on starting the tractor it produce about 15A at low idle and its rated 55A at higher rpm. Image Great.

I then switched the tractor off and disconnected the battery as I didn't have the hold down strap on hand I didn't want the battery loose in the engine bay......now for a confession. I needed to mow some grass for about 10 min and did so without the battery.

Later that day I went to install the battery more permanently and after doing so. I tested everything again. This time no output from the alternator. Image

Wires and so on where checked and double checked. Everything was fine. Ok time to pull it off and pull it apart.

Everything smelled fresh inside
Image

I then tested all three diodes on both + and - of the rectifier and they all checked out ok
Image

All three ok on one side
Image

All three ok on the other side.
Image

I then tested the three little diodes bridging the two and they are ok.
Image

I then tested the stator winding's on all three legs. All ok
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Checked for shorts. ok there to.
Image

Checked the rotor winding's all ok
Image

Checked the rotor for shorts all ok
Image

Lucky last is the voltage regulator. Though to test this one I might need a adjustable dc power supply to test it. Though as far as I am concerned it has to be the voltage regulator. Though that said I would have thought if it was bad I would still some output just uncontrolled voltage. So not sure.
Image

Image

Anything I am overlooking? These things should be relatively simple.

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Mon, 29 Feb 2016, 15:09, edited 1 time in total.

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reecho
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Post by reecho » Tue, 01 Mar 2016, 05:06

How does it excite?.....Can you post a pic of the connections?

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Post by Johny » Tue, 01 Mar 2016, 14:07

When you say "needed an alternator for years", do you have the old one?

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offgridQLD
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Post by offgridQLD » Tue, 01 Mar 2016, 14:32

Johny,
      No I was running a very short V belt with no alternator. Jumpstart in shed. Use it and then park back in shed or Get very frustrated when, if I stalled it in the paddock Image

I'm reasonably sure why I might have damaged this brand new alternator. By running it for a short period 10 mins with the alternator wired in but without the battery connected. I think it has fried the voltage regulator into a open or off position by doing so. So the exciter voltage isn't passing to create the magnetic field.

The tricky thing is the voltage regulator and brush ring and exciter wire terminal block is all one assembly. Though it can be de soldered from the rectifier assembly on the other side. Just looks like a tricky part to find.

Though I need to test that. Perhaps one option is to solder a jumper across the V reg terminal and run a wire to the outside. Then use a external V regulator.

Its a real shame as this alternator is a marine grade Yanmar replacement (as boats use the same engine) and everything is beautifully insulated and well finished for a harsh environment. Just a shame I only got 2 min operation from it Image

Exciter wire terminal, one is the dash lamp terminal.
Image

The six soldered terminals at the bottom below the brush ring are the back side of the voltage regulator.
Image

Voltage reg side view, back of brush termination (after removing rubber cap). The Regulator is sealed with black silicon. Perhaps i should de solder the six lugs on the V reg and remove it so see whats fried inside.

Image

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Tue, 01 Mar 2016, 03:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Johny » Tue, 01 Mar 2016, 14:58

Is there any chance that you burnt out the dash lamp while running it without battery?

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offgridQLD
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Post by offgridQLD » Tue, 01 Mar 2016, 15:01

I eliminated the ignition circuit all together when testing and ran a jumper wire directly from the spade terminal to the battery post and it still wont excite.

Kurt

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Post by reecho » Tue, 01 Mar 2016, 15:07

Ok so that connector looks coded to OEM.

So one of the terminals is the warning light. Any idea what the other one is?

Voltage sense? Ign??

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Post by Johny » Tue, 01 Mar 2016, 15:09

OH. Thought I had it there as the dash lamp generally runs between the low current rectifier output (that supplies voltage to the reg. which then supplies the field) and the 12V battery (via ign.). A runaway voltage (PWM in field with no real load) would have produced way to much voltage for the lamp. Drat!
Just to be sure, test the dash lamp when you get time.

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Post by Johny » Tue, 01 Mar 2016, 15:11

Run of the mill alternator wiring.
Image

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offgridQLD
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Post by offgridQLD » Tue, 01 Mar 2016, 15:22

Thanks Johny,
             I havn't had needed to play with alternators over the years as I have never had a issue. So this is a interesting learning experience. Yes I will keep in mind that the dash lamp could be blown when It comes to wiring it back in. (and make a note never to run without a battery again ) For now though I have eliminated the ignition and have a direct power feed (just for testing) just to keep it simple until I get it functioning again.

I am going to de solder the 6 internal voltage regulator terminals that way I can pry the heat sink off the silicon bed and expose the electronics. One I might see what is fried. Potential to repair. Or two there is the option to build a external voltage reg and bypass it.

this little youtube video of a external reg mod looked interesting. I like that you can adjust the Voltage output. could be a inexpensive way to put it back in action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI7oFEcDQzo

Kurt

[ Edited Coulomb - repaired link ]
Last edited by coulomb on Tue, 01 Mar 2016, 04:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Adverse Effects » Tue, 01 Mar 2016, 15:32

link that works for you :-)
[tube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI7oFEcDQzo[/tube]

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Post by Johny » Tue, 01 Mar 2016, 16:43

Check that none of these fit:
http://store.alternatorparts.com/specialregulators.aspx

Years ago I had alternator whine issues using HF radio so I built my own analogue regulator (not switching). It's hard to make it weatherproof though. Better to buy the right one if possible.

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offgridQLD
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Post by offgridQLD » Tue, 01 Mar 2016, 17:31

Thats a good point Johny. OEM is weather tight.

It's a very odd shape internal unit that I'm struggling to even find a pic of online (not a common alternator). Though perhaps a simple external OEM regulator from a very common alternator fitted outside with and bridging the terminals on the internal unit to bypass it is a option.

Perhaps I I just just bridge the terminals to bypass the internal unit and just spin it up to see if I can get a unregulated output from it first.

Then adapting a external reg isn't a big deal

Somthing like this
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-ALTERNAT ... fVRkNKnxew
Last edited by offgridQLD on Tue, 01 Mar 2016, 06:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Adverse Effects
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Post by Adverse Effects » Tue, 01 Mar 2016, 17:44


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offgridQLD
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Post by offgridQLD » Tue, 01 Mar 2016, 17:49

Adverse Affects,
               The link worked when I previewed it and click on it. So not sure why it doesn't work once posted.

Thanks but perhaps rather than just fixing it. Tell me what your doing to get it working then it wont happen again.

Edit:
perhaps its because I posted it from a (quick response) Just went did the same from a full featured response as a Edit and now it works.

Kurt
          
Last edited by offgridQLD on Tue, 01 Mar 2016, 06:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Johny » Tue, 01 Mar 2016, 17:55

I think you may be better off with a Bosch RE55. A non-eBay seller has them if that's preferable.
http://www.pentastarparts.com.au/store/ ... ail&p=2286

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Adverse Effects
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Post by Adverse Effects » Tue, 01 Mar 2016, 17:57

ok no problem ask and you will recive Image

i hand type all my links and stuff that way the forum software carnt get it wrong :-)

Image
Last edited by Adverse Effects on Tue, 01 Mar 2016, 06:59, edited 1 time in total.

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offgridQLD
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Post by offgridQLD » Tue, 01 Mar 2016, 18:04

That RE55 looks neater Johny. looks like the back of my alternator housing has two tapped holes that just by chance might even fit that straight up.

Adverse yes it looks like the link just posts different as shown when using the link button on the (quick response) option

Kurt

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Post by Adverse Effects » Tue, 01 Mar 2016, 18:12

Image

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offgridQLD
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Post by offgridQLD » Tue, 01 Mar 2016, 18:50

I just took a fine point scapel blade and pealed back some of the rubber- silicon under the heat sink for the in build V regulator.

I think I might have found the issue why its open circuit. It looks like a short wire that connects from the back of one the brush terminals to the BCB of the V reg has come away from the board.

It could have simply got hot when ran with no battery connected and lifted or be one of a few issues. Though I am gong to re solder it and see if it's that simple.

Image

Close up
Image

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Tue, 01 Mar 2016, 07:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Johny » Tue, 01 Mar 2016, 19:00

Fingers crossed...
Could be that the first time it was exposed to vibration it failed. I can't see how the area could have got hot enough to melt solder and not be more obvious.

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offgridQLD
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Post by offgridQLD » Tue, 01 Mar 2016, 19:41

Yes, it is a 3ycl diesel that's hard mounted to the chassis. They are not know for there silky smooth operation.

I assume any kind of black (non acidic cure) silicon would be ok to patch up the removed section and restore the seal.

Kurt

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