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Toyota to go the Hydrogen route

Posted: Mon, 19 May 2014, 19:44
by Johny
Toyota has apparently abandoned it's Tesla linked approach to EVs and is going the Honda route.
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1824 ... es-instead

Toyota to go the Hydrogen route

Posted: Tue, 20 May 2014, 01:14
by coulomb
Johny wrote: Toyota has apparently abandoned its Tesla linked approach to EVs and is going the Honda route.

So sad to see. Why is it so hard for vehicle executives to see what is so plain and simple?

Toyota to go the Hydrogen route

Posted: Tue, 20 May 2014, 02:10
by acmotor
You can be sold hydrogen as a low efficiency by-product of fossil fuel refinement. The infrastructure and service station mechanism is in place, just upgrade to highly complex hydrogen handling. Tax and excise is easy to apply. Less risk of you getting free energy direct from the sun via PVs and WTs. That is.. Transport energy is easier to tax and regulate. It will be considered too dangerous to produce and store hydrogen privately in automotive quantities. In fact you could legislate that you cannot do it privately... To protect the greater interests. Image


Toyota to go the Hydrogen route

Posted: Tue, 20 May 2014, 20:49
by Richo
It does make more sense from a Government enslavement point of view.
And it's not even April 1st anymore...
http://www.torquenews.com/2250/honda-to ... cell-plans


Toyota to go the Hydrogen route

Posted: Thu, 22 May 2014, 21:40
by Johny
Hyundai jumped on the hydrogen wagon too.
http://green.autoblog.com/2014/05/21/hy ... alifornia/

Toyota to go the Hydrogen route

Posted: Fri, 23 May 2014, 07:46
by 7circle
Came across a techie amtuer web page on fuel cell info
[url=http://twinkle_toes_engineering.home.comcast.net/~twinkle_toes_engineering/hydrogen_car.htm]http://twinkle_toes_engineering.home.comcast.net/~twinkle_toes_engineering/hydrogen_car.htm[/url]

Also Hyundai have a comparison of CO2 emissions sourced from
http://www.hyundai.com.au/about-hyundai ... rs-in-2014

http://www.hyundai.com.au/Images/UserUp ... -20141.jpg
Not sure why link uses "userUploadImages" it's in their news article.
Image

No mention of renewable electricity generaration.

Toyota to go the Hydrogen route

Posted: Fri, 23 May 2014, 20:51
by Richo
TBH we will also need H2 cars to slowly take place of the slice of oil pie.
Irrespective of the WTW emissions.

If a solar truck is colleting lithium from a mine and it gets used to make a battery in a factory powered by solar then delivered to me in a solar boat from China then delivered to me in an EV powered by solar.
Then the WTW emission of my ev would beat a fuel cell car powered by toilet water Image


Toyota to go the Hydrogen route

Posted: Fri, 23 May 2014, 21:08
by Johny
Sorry to be a bit on the greedy side - but at least it will help take the pressure off Govts wanting to extract some kind of petrol-excise-substitute from battery electric owners.
Maybe we might get to do a little less than our share of the heavy lifting.

Toyota to go the Hydrogen route

Posted: Mon, 26 May 2014, 20:43
by Richo
I don't think it make that much difference.
Tax goes down in one area it gets supplemented in other areas.
Unless there is a fuel war it will be a gradual tax change anyway.

Toyota to go the Hydrogen route

Posted: Fri, 13 Jun 2014, 18:49
by Johny
Just when you thought that is was safe to go back in the H2O - well at least the H part - some annoying person does some science on the likely well to wheel emissions of a Hydrogen Fuel Cell powered car:
http://cleantechnica.com/2014/05/20/fue ... emissions/

Toyota to go the Hydrogen route

Posted: Fri, 13 Jun 2014, 19:08
by adelaide-ev
Well that's a long and very enlightening read. Thanks for posting the link.

Toyota to go the Hydrogen route

Posted: Fri, 13 Jun 2014, 19:47
by Johny
Yes, unfortunately I think you have got to wade through the article to understand the politics and players involved.

In a referenced document siting the launch of H2USA (Federal) it becomes obvious who stands to gain:
"Current members of the H2USA partnership include the American Gas Association, Association of Global Automakers, the California Fuel Cell Partnership, the Electric Drive Transportation Association, the Fuel Cell and Hydrogen Energy Association, Hyundai Motor America, ITM Power, Massachusetts Hydrogen Coalition, Mercedes-Benz USA, Nissan North America Research and Development, Proton OnSite, and Toyota Motor North America."

I'm not sure why the Electric Drive Transportation Association added their name to the list. It certainly doesn't match their mission statement.

The fact that they keep referring the "clean Hydrogen" is disturbing - it's still fossil fuel.
"Recent development of the United States’ tremendous shale gas resources has not only helped directly cut electricity and transportation costs for consumers and businesses, but is also helping to reduce the costs of producing hydrogen and operating hydrogen fuel cells."

Toyota to go the Hydrogen route

Posted: Wed, 01 Apr 2015, 18:51
by Rusdy
Sigh. Will hydrogen silliness ever stop?

http://www.news.com.au/technology/innov ... 7287417596

Toyota to go the Hydrogen route

Posted: Wed, 01 Apr 2015, 20:08
by reecho
I thought this was a great April Fools gag.....

But no it's legit....and just outright dumb.

Tell us Hyundai, If the cars are "ready", how much?

Link

Toyota to go the Hydrogen route

Posted: Wed, 01 Apr 2015, 20:34
by Richo
If its real why only release them on April fools...

From a marketing point of view any other day would have been better.

Toyota to go the Hydrogen route

Posted: Wed, 01 Apr 2015, 20:54
by g4qber
Cos it is the start of spring in Europe.
Noticed that My timer was forward in time today.
Said 7pm when it was only 6pm
It probably was already changed on 29 March

Now I know how to set the Schneider meter box digital timer for summer / winter daylight saving time

Toyota to go the Hydrogen route

Posted: Wed, 01 Apr 2015, 22:04
by Feng
So much vitriol against EVs in the comments here.

Toyota to go the Hydrogen route

Posted: Thu, 02 Apr 2015, 08:30
by acmotor
Here we go again Image
The Hyundai ix35 is and ELECTRIC VEHICLE whose battery pack (energy storage module) just happens to be a hydrogen fuel cell.
Why are they so dead scared to state the fact it is an EV first and foremost ?
Hydrogen.... great, we can sell you that !

The statement in the link of Feng's post above says...

"Manufactured in Korea, the ix35 Fuel Cell develops 100kW of power and 300Nm of torque and has an official maximum range of 594km."
So there you go, a fuel cell develops torque, or is that just talk   Image We know what they mean, shame the journalist has no idea.

Toyota to go the Hydrogen route

Posted: Thu, 02 Apr 2015, 17:41
by reecho
Good example of this RWNJ government and it's support for big oil...

CarAdvice

Toyota to go the Hydrogen route

Posted: Thu, 02 Apr 2015, 18:17
by Johny
Our esteemed minister says:
"Hydrogen certainly strikes me as the fuel of the future. You’re not carrying around batteries, you’re not having to dispose of batteries every four to eight years."

Umm, Minister, the Fuel cell ix35 has a 24kwh Lithium battery pack.
Gee, I guess it's a hybrid after all. Hey, bundle a charger into the mix and call it a PHYEV. (Say it like "five")

Toyota to go the Hydrogen route

Posted: Thu, 02 Apr 2015, 20:43
by Richo
Why would it need a 100kW fuel stack?
Lets see the 24kWh battery pack at ~4-5C would give the 100kW peak power.
The rest of the time the car draws what 30kW?!?
So even a 40kW fuel cell would easily run the car down the freeway and charge the pack at the same time.
So Perth to Albany the 40kW fuel cell has charged the pack about twice and run the car all the way there...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_ix35_FCEV

http://www.carscoops.com/2015/03/intell ... 100kw.html

http://www.iphe.net/docs/Meetings/Germa ... i_ver3.pdf


There is power coming out the power points in my house.
It is free from the sun.
But Hyundai want me to drive somewhere to fill up with an explosive gas.
Awesome.

They would be better off using the fuel stack as a stationary charge point for a highway.
100kW DC fast charge thanks...

Toyota to go the Hydrogen route

Posted: Thu, 02 Apr 2015, 22:11
by jonescg
Oh my word. MacFarlane is a douche.

"The reality is that if you drive an electric car, chances are that it’s being fuelled by a fossil fuel generator. Out of sight perhaps, and perhaps out of mind, but it’s not the solution"

And who has the power and resources to do something about that Mr MacFarlane?

Toyota to go the Hydrogen route

Posted: Thu, 02 Apr 2015, 23:45
by poprock
Could someone explain how the production of the Hydrogen takes place? The source of the electricity and what pollutants are produced please?

Toyota to go the Hydrogen route

Posted: Fri, 03 Apr 2015, 00:22
by jonescg
Vast majority of hydrogen is produced from methane and steam:
CH4 + H20 ---> 3H2 + CO
And is likely to continue to be produced this way as it has many other uses like nitrogen fertiliser production.

Electrolysis can be done industrially with an efficiency of somewhere between 60% and 90%.

Compressing, storing and transporting the hydrogen is not trivial, and rather leaky. Converting it into electricity in a fuel cell is about 40%-60% based on the conversion of chemical energy (H2 and O2) to electrical energy. Then you have the same inverter/motor/drivetrain efficiencies as an EV.

Toyota to go the Hydrogen route

Posted: Fri, 03 Apr 2015, 05:21
by poprock
Is there any chance of a Hindenberg type event at each re-filling station?