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Post by weber » Thu, 26 Mar 2009, 15:55

It's not a hybrid between permanent magnet and induction. I'm pretty sure:
(a) That's impossible.
(b) The hybridisation is between two types of synchronous motor: Permanent magnet and [Edit: Delete "switched"] reluctance. So it's purely synchronous.

See [Edit: Change from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched_Reluctance_Motor
to]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reluctance_motor

The permanent magnets ensure a minimum field is maintained even at high speed. [Edit: Not actually sure what benefit(s) the PM gives]

Cogging in an induction motor is avoided by slightly spiraling the rotor bars.
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Post by coulomb » Thu, 26 Mar 2009, 18:33

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reluctance_motor#Synchronous_reluctance wrote:Wikipedia[/url]]Synchronous reluctance motors have equal number of stator and rotor poles.
From the above, it would seem more likely (assuming that the diagram is accurate) that it is a switched reluctance motor after all.

Can you get regeneration with reluctance motors? Presumably, only if you have permanent magnets in the rotor, as well as soft iron. Switched reluctance motors are essentially stepper motors, meaning that you can drive them with simpler signals, possibly more efficiently.

Switched reluctance motors are supposed to be the cheapest to build (excluding the permanent magnets). This design might have very good application in EVs.
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Post by kermit » Thu, 26 Mar 2009, 21:55


checkout the road test in last weekends Drive
http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/Artic ... leID=61608

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Post by Mesuge » Wed, 01 Apr 2009, 06:27

Interesting quote from the review article above:
"Dr Coop and his small team of software experts, engineers and mechanics have spent between $2 million and $3 million
developing the evMe for commercial use."


Well, I think the pricetag is "justified" for the top drivetrain, charging and bms components (Brusa/MES-DEA) made in Swiss. Also don't forget the batts., which are clearly Li-polymer Kokams. So, this EVme setup is far better/advanced piece of kit than iMiev (Li-co batts) in nominal terms, putting the hand made assembly issue aside for now, since that announced development budget looks fair to cover the basic safety/reliability issues. Also the range for iMiev in combined/certified cycle will be only <120km, while evME shows ~190km/35kWh. The trim/interior of Mazda is also a bit higher.

So sadly or realistically, this is the nature of the industry/technology available for mortals not the OEM & oilly schwindlers. This EVme conversion or eBox from ACP, which has perhaps a bit more usefull donor in Toyota's Scion wagon, both go for ~ $70grands.

The times when hacked <100hp peak capable AC drivetrains go for ~3grands are closer than you might think, however the only problem will remain as always and that's battery price per kWh, energy density, cycle life..

http://evme.com.au/design/assembly
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Post by fuzzy-hair-man » Wed, 01 Apr 2009, 16:59

I was watching Today this morning and they had a bit on the iMiEV and they weren't sure what the price would be but their best guess seemed to be $64,000, they said it was ~$40,000 (I'm guessing in Aus $) in Japan but this included subsidies.

If this is the case the EVme is starting to look pretty good, the prospect of paying $6000 more for a top driveline and something like half again as much range doesn't sound bad.

For the rest of the section on it the presenter didn't do all that well (his guest made reasonable points) he didn't like that it made no sound (he called it dangerous because it made no sound) and later said he was glad to get up to highway speed where there was some noise. Image He also couldn't work out how to reverse it. Image

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Post by crazy cat lady » Wed, 22 Apr 2009, 16:15

Hmmm, what is the actual price of the iMiEV?
It seems very clear that everyone is in the same boat when it comes to the price of new technology. Range is one of those things that needs to be explained very clearly, on a Level open road (max. achievable @ 100% discharge) (from web site) the evMe has been proven to travel 278 km at 50kp/h. But of course this is in perfect conditions and at a constant speed. At 100km/h in the same perfect conditions it will go 200km.

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Post by antiscab » Wed, 22 Apr 2009, 22:44

crazy cat lady wrote: Hmmm, what is the actual price of the iMiEV?
It seems very clear that everyone is in the same boat when it comes to the price of new technology. Range is one of those things that needs to be explained very clearly, on a Level open road (max. achievable @ 100% discharge) (from web site) the evMe has been proven to travel 278 km at 50kp/h. But of course this is in perfect conditions and at a constant speed. At 100km/h in the same perfect conditions it will go 200km.


I agree, any range testing should not be done under ideal conditions, and definately not at 50kmh.
im not sure a standard driving cycle (used for rating fuel economy) would give accurate information either.

the drivetrain efficiency of an ICE varies wildly in comparison to an EV. An ICE engine has max efficiency at throttle wide open, and so naturally gets better economy at a higher speed than an EV.

so a driving cycle test at 50kmh used for ICE vehicles shows fuel economy at below their most efficient speed. The same test used on an EV will show a high range due to the conditions being closer to ideal for an EV.

if the imeiv can really do 278km at 50kmh, and 200km at 100kmh, that would mean the majority of its losses aren't wind resistance based (i find this *very* hard to believe).

doubling your speed increases the energy needed per km to push the air out of the way 4 fold. It also increases 8 fold the power needed to hold present speed.

i suspect we wont really know what kinda range it gets until someone starts using one regularly.

Matt

EDIT: fixed wind resistance values.
Last edited by antiscab on Wed, 22 Apr 2009, 14:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by weber » Wed, 22 Apr 2009, 23:51

antiscab wrote:doubling your speed doubles the energy needed per km to push the air out of the way. It also increases 4 fold the power needed to hold present speed.
Doubling your speed quadruples the energy per km needed to overcome air drag, and increases the power requirement 8-fold.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_(physics)
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Post by antiscab » Thu, 23 Apr 2009, 00:04

thanks weber, fixed now.
i really should check my notes before posting off the top of my head
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Post by fuzzy-hair-man » Thu, 23 Apr 2009, 20:06

weber wrote:
antiscab wrote:doubling your speed doubles the energy needed per km to push the air out of the way. It also increases 4 fold the power needed to hold present speed.
Doubling your speed quadruples the energy per km needed to overcome air drag, and increases the power requirement 8-fold.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_(physics)
Is only the 4 times increase in drag relevant? ie you might need 8 times as much power but you are also going twice as fast so whilst you might demand power quicker you are also chewing up kms quicker... or are you alluding to the fact that if you are pulling power out of the batteries twice as fast this will have some impact on how much power you will eventually be able to pull from the batteries and therefore on range? I think this is probably beyond the scope of what those numbers were for, they seem to being used to illustrate the range issue and were never intended as real range numbers.

The quote below pretty much says that:
The above values have been calculated during test drives which established the average power consumption at a constant speed on a level surface in light winds with minimal electrical accessories operating.
I didn't remember doubling speed to result in 1/4 or 1/8th the range on my spreadsheet mini so I checked there...

The spreadsheet I have for my mini (which could be wrong) gives about half the range @ 100km/hr than at 50km/hr because rolling resistance (which is constant in my spreadsheet but not really in real life?) is more of an issue below 70 -80 km/hr and my mini (in calculations is going to be lighter but aerodynamically much worse Cd than the evMe) so the increase in speed should have less of an effect on range with the evMe than my mini.

Or have I stuffed up somewhere in that reasoning? Image

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Post by fuzzy-hair-man » Thu, 23 Apr 2009, 20:07

fuzzy-hair-man wrote:
weber wrote:
antiscab wrote:doubling your speed doubles the energy needed per km to push the air out of the way. It also increases 4 fold the power needed to hold present speed.
Doubling your speed quadruples the energy per km needed to overcome air drag, and increases the power requirement 8-fold.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_(physics)
Is only the 4 times increase in <edit>aero</edit> drag relevant? ie you might need 8 times as much power but you are also going twice as fast so whilst you might demand power quicker you are also chewing up kms quicker... or are you alluding to the fact that if you are pulling power out of the batteries twice as fast this will have some impact on how much power you will eventually be able to pull from the batteries and therefore on range? I think this is probably beyond the scope of what those numbers were for, they seem to being used to illustrate the range issue and were never intended as real range numbers.

The quote below pretty much says that:
The above values have been calculated during test drives which established the average power consumption at a constant speed on a level surface in light winds with minimal electrical accessories operating.
I didn't remember doubling speed to result in 1/4 or 1/8th the range on my spreadsheet mini so I checked there...

The spreadsheet I have for my mini (which could be wrong) gives about half the range @ 100km/hr than at 50km/hr because rolling resistance (which is constant in my spreadsheet but not really in real life?) is more of an issue below 70 -80 km/hr and my mini (in calculations is going to be lighter but aerodynamically much worse Cd than the evMe) so the increase in speed should have less of an effect on range with the evMe than my mini.

Or have I stuffed up somewhere in that reasoning? Image

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Post by Taffy » Thu, 23 Apr 2009, 20:22

Rolling resistance is taken as constant, generally. It does not really vary enough to be concerned as the effect of aero drag blows this away.

The forces you will have are:
Fte=(T*G)/r;          %Force Tractive effort - torque limited, that is you forward force from you motor to your wheels. T=torque, G= gear ratio, r = tire radius.

Fad=0.5*d*cd*a*((v(n))^2);          %Force for aerodresistance,

Frr=constant;               %force of rolling resistance,

Force pushing u forward is F = Fte - Fad - Frr
Last edited by Taffy on Thu, 23 Apr 2009, 10:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by AMPrentice » Thu, 23 Apr 2009, 21:30

With the same money for the Evme, I prefer a blade anyday with the extra money for some extra batteries from seiden instead of TS and also plenty solar panels for my roof to charge part of it.
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Post by weber » Fri, 24 Apr 2009, 04:00

Here's what I estimate the contributions of air drag and rolling resistance (RR) to be for the Mazda MX-5.

Image

This is power, so if you want range in km you have to take the energy available from your batteries in kWh, multiply by the efficiency of conversion to mechanical power at the wheels, multiply by the speed in km/h and divide by the power in kW required to maintain that speed.

I agree that while air drag _power_ goes up as the cube of speed and RR power goes up linearly, the effect of air drag on _range_ is proportional to the square of speed, and the effect of rolling resistance on range is constant.


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Post by coulomb » Sat, 13 Jun 2009, 23:47

weber wrote: It's not a hybrid between permanent magnet and induction. I'm pretty sure:
(a) That's impossible.
(b) The hybridisation is between two types of synchronous motor: Permanent magnet and [Edit: Delete "switched"] reluctance. So it's purely synchronous.
This chapter I'm reading (which you provided, thanks!) talks about a lot of synchronous motors that have induction motors to start them. So that's a hybrid of sorts. It's not clear to me if they are effectively two motors on the one shaft, or true hybrids. Also, they are obviously designed to run off the mains.

One point of nomenclature: switched- and variable- reluctance motors are the same thing:
Image
From: http://www.ibiblio.org/kuphaldt/electri ... tocid82236

I'm leaning towards the idea that the EVme motor is a hybrid between an induction (non-synchronous) and reluctance (synchronous) machines. Perhaps it's as easy as cutting slots in the rotor. I think the controller would treat it as an induction machine most of the time (controlling slip), but when running at roughly constant speed and moderate torque, allow the slip to drop to zero for better efficiency. In fact, the controller may not have to do much at all (just not panic when the slip seems to go too low all by itself). More likely, it might have to command a slightly higher speed, then command the slip to zero (reducing the speed to about the required speed), and hope that the reluctance torque is enough to keep it there. If not, go back to induction mode.

Of course, some actual facts would still be preferred to this wild speculation Image
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Post by acmotor » Sun, 14 Jun 2009, 01:06

Without inducing a current resulting in a magnetic field or having PMs in the rotor, the available torque will be small.
e.g. switched reluctance vs PM synchronous motor the torque/kg of motor will be small.
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Post by weber » Sun, 14 Jun 2009, 01:16

coulomb wrote: This chapter I'm reading (which you provided, thanks!) talks about a lot of synchronous motors that have induction motors to start them. So that's a hybrid of sorts.
I didn't say that a synchronous/induction hybrid was impossible in general. Only a permanent-magnet(synchronous)/induction hybrid. And two motors on the one shaft don't qualify as a hybrid motor, only as a hybrid system of some kind. But I guess this patent qualifies since it has one stator and two concentric rotors, one PM, the other induction.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP1713161.html
So I'll refine my claim to say that it would be utterly pointless to make a rotor that combined PM and induction.
I'm leaning towards the idea that the EVme motor is a hybrid between an induction (non-synchronous) and reluctance (synchronous) machines.

It's a BRUSA, which they call a hybrid synchrous machine (HSM). That says to me that it is all synchronous and the hybridisation is between two kinds of synchrous machine.
http://www.brusa.biz/assets/downloads/d ... .17.12.pdf
The picture shows what looks like PM inserts in the rotor. The specs quote a "saliency". Only variable reluctance motors have salience, which means "sticking-out-ness". It is the ratio of the maximum and minimum reluctances of the magnetic path as the rotor rotates. Stepper motors that are hybrid between PM and reluctance are readily googled.

This is all still circumstantial I know.

If you can translate this from German, you may have your answer.
http://www.brusa.biz/assets/downloads/r ... 801SEV.pdf
BTW, "erregter" means excited.
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Post by coulomb » Sun, 14 Jun 2009, 01:28

Yes, the torque will be smaller than the induction peak torque, but how much less? If it's 1/4 or more of the induction torque, it would still be useful for increasing the efficiency at low torque, extending range.

Unless of course the modifications (slots in the rotor, something else that adds extra weight perhaps) adversely affects normal induction performance too much to outweigh the efficiency benefits.

Oops, I'd forgotten the major slated benefit of this hybrid motor (unless I'm badly misreading things): the slower drop off of power above nominal speed.

Edit: From http://www.metricmind.com/motor.htm:

   BRUSA HSM6.17.12 hybrid motor is special type; its design and characteristics are blend of induction and synchronous motors - they feature squirrel cage rotor as for ASM6.17.12 motor with embedded rare earth permanent magnets. This allows to combine advantages of induction motors at lower RPM and synchronous machines at higher RPM. Distinctive advantage of such hybrid motor is nearly constant power curve at constant power region up to the top RPM unlike noticeable fall off for induction motor.

So they've somehow found a way to combine induction (non-synchronous) and PM-AC (synchronous) motors. Pretty tricky.


Earlier I said (before researching properly Image ):

That sounds to me like permanent magnets, which I agree would be difficult to hybridise with an induction motor.

So they'd need to switch the magnets on and off, as well as the rotor short circuit. The former could be done with a wound rotor and (sharp intake of breath) slip rings, but the latter... Maybe shorting the wound rotor would work? Instead of looking like a transformer with a short circuit at the output, it would look like a transformer whose output comes out on terminals, which you can apply DC to, or short out.
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Post by coulomb » Sun, 14 Jun 2009, 02:15

This at least confirms that the motor is a Brusa hybrid:

http://www.brusa.biz/news/news.php?l_se ... =11&idk=23

And there only seems to be one Brusa hybrid motor. So it certainly looks like fuzzy-hair-man got it right.
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Post by weber » Sun, 14 Jun 2009, 03:00

coulomb wrote: From http://www.metricmind.com/motor.htm:

   BRUSA HSM6.17.12 hybrid motor is special type; its design and characteristics are blend of induction and synchronous motors - they feature squirrel cage rotor as for ASM6.17.12 motor with embedded rare earth permanent magnets. ...

So they've somehow found a way to combine induction (non-synchronous) and PM-AC (synchronous) motors. Pretty tricky.

It would be tricky. If they had done it. But I'm afraid the author of that MetricMind advertising blurb has simply got it wrong.

I translated the start of the section entitled
"Hybrid erregte Synchronmaschinen"
beginning near the end of page 10 of this Brusa document
http://www.brusa.biz/assets/downloads/r ... 801SEV.pdf
using Yahoo Babel Fish and came up with this:
Hybrid excited synchronous machines

A further group of engines is based on the principle that itself a magnetize-the-same-able (however even not more magnetic) body with a pronounced preferred direction for the magnetic river in the direction the outside field aligns (Reluctance principle).

Such reluctance motors draw by a very simple design and an extreme robustness out. However close itself the desired characteristics, high Power density and small noise, mutually out. A high torque yield becomes only with pulse stream reached, which not only moment screen end, but also pulsating radial forces cause. These knead the stator accurately through and leave it in such a way to one hardly controllable source of impact sound become.

Becomes however the Reluctance principle and the permanent excitation with one another combined, then leaves itself with more careful Interpretation the best of both use, without the specific disadvantages all too strongly into the foreground step. Becomes the circumstance used that with linear decreasing basic characteristics the disadvantages regress squarely. Stretchers for example the magnets only 50% to the maximum excitation, amount to the basic losses caused by it only 25% of a fully permanently excited Engine. In similar way is valid also for the disadvantages of the Reluctance principle.
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Post by weber » Sun, 14 Jun 2009, 04:12

Now here's my best guess at turning that Babel Fish translation into proper grammatical English.
Hybrid excited synchronous machines

A further group of motors is based on the principle that a magnetisable body that is not itself magnetic, having a pronounced preferred direction for the magnetic flux, aligns in the direction of the outside field (Reluctance principle).

Such reluctance motors are extremely robust due to their very simple design. However the desirable characteristics of high power density and low noise are mutually exclusive for this type of motor. A high torque yield is only possible with square waves, which not only cause pulsating torque, but also cause pulsating radial forces. These are a source of noise that is difficult to control.

If however the reluctance principle and permanent excitation are combined with one another, then with careful design it gives the best of both, with the disadvantages being only in the background. This is possible because with linearlyof decreasing basic characteristics the disadvantages decrease as their square. If the permanent magnet excitation is reduced to 50%, the losses it causes reduce to only 25% of the losses of a fully permanently-excited motor. A similar thing happens for the disadvantages of the reluctance principle.
But why anyone would want a reluctant motor is beyond me. I'd much prefer it to be permanently excited. Image
[Edit: Added another bad pun]
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Post by acmotor » Sun, 14 Jun 2009, 05:17

Hahahaha.... Rolls on floor... Image
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Post by Tritium_James » Sun, 14 Jun 2009, 05:44

Switched reluctance motors are quite nice from a construction perspective too, quite easy to make. They're more difficult from a controller point of view though, you need a full bridge for each phase, compared to only a half bridge for each phase in a normal 3-phase motor, so double the silicon ($, and volume).

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Post by coulomb » Sun, 14 Jun 2009, 16:04

Could we please direct any further discussion on hybrid motors to this thread:

viewtopic.php?p=13829&t=1245#p13829
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