EVme $70K

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Post by Taffy » Mon, 23 Mar 2009, 18:36

The EVme is based off a mazda 2 Image, and is expected to cost $70K.
http://evme.com.au/

From there site:

Body Style

5 door hatch
commercial delivery van
Performance

Range of up to 200km
Maximum motoring speed of 130km
Power acceleration from 0-100 in 10 seconds in performance mode.
Extended battery life of 10 years (driving an average of 1,250km month)
Energy Efficiency


Milage cost of only two cents per kilometer
Motor energy efficiency of up to 96% compared to less than 30% for conventional fuel based vehicle
Energy stored in the batteries can be uploaded back into the electricity grid
Easy integration with domestic solar installations and can operate entirely on renewable energy
Charging

Easy to charge at home from a standard domestic electrical socket and requires no additional wiring or specialised equipment for basic charging (10AMP supply).
A range of charging options is available to decrease the time to recharge from the standard overnight option.
Battery Charge Single
               10 Amp Single      15 Amp Dual          15 Amp
50 km           3 hours 45 mins      2 hours 30 mins   1 hour 15 mins
100 km          7 hours 30 mins      5 hours           2 hours 30 mins
200 km (full) 15 hours             10 hours           5 hours

Digital Control

Fully digital vehicle
Continuous monitoring and optimisation of system variables to maximise performance and efficiency
Seamless software upgrades and real-time diagnostics across 2G/3G Network.
Diagnostics can be undertaken remotely without the need to return the vehicle to a repair garage.

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Post by htial » Mon, 23 Mar 2009, 19:24

Yay...   ...An EV that looks like a real car...

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Post by coulomb » Mon, 23 Mar 2009, 19:31

I want to know how they manage this this torque / power curve:
Image

The torque seems to only decay at 1/f, so the power is relatively steady at 70-80 kW.

Are they not using breakdown torque at all? Can this vehicle put out 70+ kW continuously? Image Are they therefore using a really massive motor? Can anyone find any technical info on the motor or controller? It's sure a big (in size) controller, and the motor doesn't look like anything I've seen.

Edit: embedded the image for ease of reading.
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Post by fuzzy-hair-man » Mon, 23 Mar 2009, 19:48

Reading between the lines and motor specs and the fact that they state they use a Swiss motor I think the motor is the BRUSA HSM 6.17.12 which is available here Metric Mind:Motors the price listed is $21,976.00 US for the motor only!! which goes a fair way to explaining the 70,000 price tag!! Thier batteries, inverter, charger, BMS can't be cheap either, that 70,000 seems to be getting eaten up fast!

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Post by Taffy » Mon, 23 Mar 2009, 19:51

Wow... i wonder they are inside that $70K mark if its ~30K $AUD on a motor!!! + labour into that as well can not be cheap. Some kind of commerical deal maybe?

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Post by coulomb » Mon, 23 Mar 2009, 20:28

fuzzy-hair-man wrote: Reading between the lines and motor specs and the fact that they state they use a Swiss motor I think the motor is the BRUSA HSM 6.17.12 which is available here Metric Mind:Motors (edit: removed trailing space from URL) the price listed is $21,976.00 US for the motor only!! which goes a fair way to explaining the 70,000 price tag!! Their batteries, inverter, charger, BMS can't be cheap either, that 70,000 seems to be getting eaten up fast!

Ah, a hybrid motor! (That model comes in standard and hybrid versions). (Hybrid here means it's a sort of blend of induction and synchronous motors). [Edit: actually, it's likely a hybrid of BLDC and reluctance motors.]

In fact, from the MM site, the torque/power curve is almost identical to the one the EVme publishes. So I think you have that right, well sniffed, fuzzy-hair-man!

There are hints on the MM site that the price might be improved with quantity buying; I guess they managed some sort of decent deal for this interesting motors.

I wonder how soon mere mortals like us could get a hold of such motors.

I also wonder if we can just glue a strong magnet to the rotor of a standard industrial machine, balance it well, put in better bearings, and get improved high speed performance. Image
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Post by woody » Mon, 23 Mar 2009, 21:09

coulomb wrote: I want to know how they manage this this torque / power curve. The torque seems to only decay at 1/f, so the power is relatively steady at 70-80 kW.
That efficiency is good, >100% between 2000 and 7000 rpm. Image
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Post by coulomb » Mon, 23 Mar 2009, 21:54

woody wrote:That efficiency is good, >100% between 2000 and 7000 rpm. Image

Heh. The black line the ICE power.

But I think that that mistake confirms that they copied the Brusa torque/speed diagram. Image
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Post by fuzzy-hair-man » Mon, 23 Mar 2009, 21:55

woody wrote:
coulomb wrote: I want to know how they manage this this torque / power curve. The torque seems to only decay at 1/f, so the power is relatively steady at 70-80 kW.
That efficiency is good, >100% between 2000 and 7000 rpm. Image


Image if you look here the black line refers to the 4 cylinder ICE's torque curve.

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Post by fuzzy-hair-man » Mon, 23 Mar 2009, 22:32

coulomb wrote: I also wonder if we can just glue a strong magnet to the rotor of a standard industrial machine, balance it well, put in better bearings, and get improved high speed performance. Image
They do sound kinda funky

Quote from Metric Mind:
BRUSA HSM6.17.12 hybrid motor is special type; its design and characteristics are blend of induction and synchronous motors - they feature squirrel cage rotor as for ASM6.17.12 motor with embedded rare earth permanent magnets. This allows to combine advantages of induction motors at lower RPM and synchronous machines at higher RPM. Distinctive advantage of such hybrid motor is nearly constant power curve at constant power region up to the top RPM unlike noticeable fall off for induction motor.


That power graph is quite different to this one for the non hybrid version of the same motor.

very expensive magnets those they cost almost $9000 US!! Image comparing the 2 graphs there doesn't seem much performance cost to the hybrid motor either except for 4kg in weight, the hybrid looks more efficient... I was wondering if the extra weight on the rotor (rotating mass) would cause reduced efficentcy but it seems the opposite.

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Post by Electrocycle » Mon, 23 Mar 2009, 22:49

extra rotating mass will only reduce efficiency during acceleration, and you'd get some of that back in regen.
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Post by Rattrap » Mon, 23 Mar 2009, 22:54

At $70k they are going to be pushing it to be competetive with the Mitsubishi Miev which has been estimated to cost $30k in Aus next year.

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Post by htial » Mon, 23 Mar 2009, 23:21

Rattrap wrote: At $70k they are going to be pushing it to be competetive with the Mitsubishi Miev which has been estimated to cost $30k in Aus next year.

I know which one I'd be getting with my tight little monies...   ...I doubt an extra 40km in range is worth $40,000.oo...

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Post by Richo » Tue, 24 Mar 2009, 00:41

yeah I don't think they evaluated the market so well when they thought it up.
Don't forget they were doing these in prodcution runs...
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by Rattrap » Tue, 24 Mar 2009, 01:58

interesting, i was just about to say that it'll hurt the Blade EV conversions too but i just checked their website & conversions are now down to $30k for retro fit or $40k for car & fit. i bet that'll come down further when the Miev & other brands hit the market.

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Post by Richo » Tue, 24 Mar 2009, 02:28

The problem with the MieV will be, I think, is it is still on like a 5 year lease.
With the blade eV converted Getz it's yours for ever.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by coulomb » Tue, 24 Mar 2009, 07:06

Richo wrote: The problem with the MieV will be, I think, is it is still on like a 5 year lease.

Geez, haven't they learned that lesson yet?

Sigh. But it will take just one manufacturer to offer a real EV at a reasonable price, for real sale, and they will start the revolution. Well, that phase of the revolution.
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Post by Rattrap » Tue, 24 Mar 2009, 15:31

I hadn't read anything about lease only, might have to go back & read more closely. Theres not a chance in hell they are gonna get a single cent out of me for a leased car. (see my angry face!)

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Post by Taffy » Tue, 24 Mar 2009, 18:12

Im not paying $30K for leasing a car!!! I could build 2nd 7 car to keep for that much! and use lithiums... Image

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Post by fuzzy-hair-man » Tue, 24 Mar 2009, 18:40

Well I'm biased because the eVme is being built in Armidale my home town, Image Image but I think the engine and controller (assuming it's similarly specced) are some pretty high end stuff and I'd be pretty sure that the evMe would out perform the MiEV and is probably a better package, obviously Mitsubitshi has a distinct advantage being able to design and build an EV from scratch. I guess a lesson might be if you are going to put really high end stuff into an EV it's better to put it into a car where it can be perceived more easily as high end.

For instance if this were packaged into a lotus elise, Image or a Mercedes A class then there might be less concern about the price, but people don't expect to pay 70,000 for a Mazda <edit>hatch</edit> no matter what's inside!! AFAIK the brusa stuff is some really high end stuff and from what I've seen I'd put it far above the Solectra / Azure stuff going into the Blade EVs (nothing against Azure, Solectra or Blade EV) whether it's worth it for the expensive stuff is another thing, but people pay a lot more for luxury and/or high quality cars it's just a pity no one knows the brusa or evMe brands so no knows the quality of the parts so it's a harder sell.
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Post by coulomb » Wed, 25 Mar 2009, 07:06

Interesting that they seem to use higher V/Hz to get the maximum power:
Image
Nominal speed is 3500 RPM, but max torque is at 2700 RPM. I'm intrigued about N_edge (see the data sheet), which seems to be the nominal speed (4000 RPM) for the induction motor.

So they seem to use about 1.5 x nominal V/Hz for maximum power. They do the same thing for the non hyrid induction motor with the same part number.

This image from the datasheet seems to be hinting at the rotor construction of the hybrid motor:
Image

Verses this for the same-numbered non-hybrid (ordinary induction) motor:
Image
Edit: added this image

I wish I could understand what it is trying to say. Does anyone have any references for this type of motor? Wikipedia doesn't seem to have it.
Last edited by coulomb on Wed, 25 Mar 2009, 19:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by BG » Thu, 26 Mar 2009, 02:57

Apologies thinking aloud here!
Interesting motor... Not only have they combined PM's (in purple) into a squirrel cage rotor but it also seems they added some saliency as well (as per the discussions I saw somewhere about the revision of the prius motor)
It makes sense the V/Hz is about the same for both motors - if they were near enough, you'd just change the number of turns a little until the motors were the same (ie then many parts of the system can be shared, like lamination thickness, gearing, balancing).
It would make for an interesting controller though!
So it seems the permanent magnets would be relatively weak, so the flux densities are lowish at low torque levels (where you spend most of your driving time, and why an iron cored, Permanent magnet BLDC motor loses its drive cycle efficiency), but strong enough to operate synchronously near max speed (where, for a straight induction motor, the poor power factor drops the efficiency because the imaginary / d axis current is much higher and doesn't contribute to torque production)
   I guess what happens when you put your foot down (ie torque increase) gets interesting, as it must transition from Synchronous to Asynchronous at some defined torque value.. I wonder if there's a momentary drop in torque (like a gear change) as the frequency changes in order to generate the slip angles required in 'induction motor' mode?
I guess, because of the saliency, it may be possible to notice cogging torque at low speeds (unlike an induction motor), although they've probably skewed the slots a bit.
Hmm.. can anyone take one for a drive. maybe you can surreptitiosly attach one of these
http://autospeed.com/cms/A_1353/article.html
to the motor at the same time

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Post by coulomb » Thu, 26 Mar 2009, 06:09

Thanks for your thoughts, BG. Yes, the transition would be interesting. Surely the controller has to be "hybrid motor aware", yet they use the same controller for the ordinary motor.

To make things easier, this is the corresponding image from the datasheet of the non-hybrid (ordinary induction) motor with the same part number:
Image

I've also edited the original message to put the two images above each other.

Edit: I'm guessing that the white parts (of both diagrams) are supposed to represent copper bars, making the shorted turns of the induction motor rotor.

Edit 2: I'm also wondering if the fact that there are 16 copper rotor slots yet 24 stator slots means that even when the magnets are synchronous with the stator field, there is a big slip between the rotor's moving field and the stator's moving field. Does that make sense?
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Post by acmotor » Thu, 26 Mar 2009, 06:29

Ummmm no ? The number of rotor copper bars is irrelevant as long as there is a few per pole ?
Or is it to avoid cogging due to the PMs trying to latch onto the stator slots when there is not stator field ?
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Post by coulomb » Thu, 26 Mar 2009, 06:40

acmotor wrote: Ummmm no ? The number of rotor copper bars is irrelevant as long as there is a few per pole ?
Image   Duh, of course.
Or is it to avoid cogging due to the PMs trying to latch onto the stator slots when there is not stator field ?

That seems quite likely.
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