199W conversion for no rego

Technical discussion on converting internal combustion to electric
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MikeG
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199W conversion for no rego

Post by MikeG »

I belive vehicles with engines <200W are not required to be registered (in the ACT).

I'm wondering if it would be viable to find the smallest lightest car you can find (Daihatsu mightyboy springs to mind) fit a 200W electric motor, batteries and a 215W Sunpower panel on the roof and hey presto you have a (albeit slow) commuter with no ongoing fuel or rego costs... Parking it in an open air carpark during the day should charge the batteries enough to get you home again without a recharge.

I realise that weight would need to be kept extremely low for this project... So a small vehicle, Li-I batteries, extraneous luxuries removed, glass replaced with lighter materials, perhaps even carbon fibre or fibreglass panels...

Given the lack of power, I guess retaining the gearbox would be necessary as the low rpm torque band would need to be utilised... Although removing side intrusion bars and such for extra lightness is attractive, I'm hesitant to sacrifice safety even if the car won;t need to be registered.

Thoughts?

MikeG

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Post by woody »

According to Uve's electric vehicle calculator, 0.26HP (~200W) is required to sustain a 700kg small car at 16kph (10mph), due to rolling resistance. Scooter may be a different story.
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Post by MikeG »

Hmm, so I guess that means I'd have to have a car that weighed 200kg to get any real performance out of it (i.e. accelleration of any kind)

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Post by Richo »

200W is bearly enough for a push bike.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by drowe67 »

I recently test-rode a 200W electric scooter that accelerated OK up to a top speed of 28 km/hr, which is faster than I can sustain on a pushy these days. Scooter + me probably weighed 130kg. It was lots of fun - I would like to buy one and solar power it (wife permitting).

While designing my EV I asked a lot of people with EVs how much current they draw @ 60 km/hr at given pack voltage. Across a range of vehicles of < 1000kg (Daihatsu Charade, Toyota Echo, Subaru Sherpa, Ford Fiesta) the results were very similar - around 7.2 - 7.5kW while cruising at 60km/hr (e.g. 60A @ 120V). The range of pack voltages was 72-144V. Acceleration used much more power (e.g. currents > 200A).

Power seems to be much less at 50 km/hr, there seems to be a bit of a "knee" in the curve at that point where you start to need lots more power to punch thru the air.

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Post by Tim »

drowe67 wrote: I recently test-rode a 200W electric scooter that accelerated OK up to a top speed of 28 km/hr, which is faster than I can sustain on a pushy these days. Scooter + me probably weighed 130kg. It was lots of fun - I would like to buy one and solar power it (wife permitting).


I don't have the details here at home... but within the last couple of weeks I was reading that some e-scooters that were claimed to have no more than 200w were tested and found to have considerably more. Like over 1000w.
Needless to say the importer is now in deep poop.

Also, I am unsure whether the 200w max rule applies across all vehicle types. It is used as the breakpoint between things like power assisted pedal cycles and motorcycles, but I am not sure if a car with less than 200w would be exempt from rego. I suspect it only applies to bike based vehicles.

Might have a look when I get the chance.

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Post by MikeG »

Interesting. I might have a chat with the technical branch of the rego mob in Canberra and see what they say. Last time I asked them about electric vehicles, they sounded all confused and unsure... They've never done one before...

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Post by hyper24 »

Once your reach a certain speed you only need power to overcome rolling resistanc and drag.
Accelerating to that speed is another story.

Not sure where you read 200watts will move a 700kg car at 16km/h, maybe with a tank full of hopes and dreams Image

Youll be lucky to overcome forces at 5km/h with 200 watts.
But if you only had 200 watts of power you would be lucky to accelerate to half that speed, and thats in theory.
In reality I would be amazed if 200 watts even started turning the wheels.

200 watts on a push bike wont even keep you up with traffic.
Last edited by hyper24 on Fri, 08 Aug 2008, 06:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by MikeG »

Spoke to a guy down there, and he dismissed the 200W rule as it opnly applies to bicycles.

He recommended these guidelines:

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/ ... eb2006.pdf

MikeG

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Post by drowe67 »

These sorts of numbers always fill me with awe - they make me realise just how powerful fossil fuels really are! The luxury of oil means we can get away with such poor efficiency in cars - e.g. forcing 1500kg of steel along at 60km/hr just to transport a 75kg person.

A fit man can sustain maybe 100W on a bike, so even a small car (EV or fossil fuel) is using the strength of 72 "slaves" (7.2kW) to push the driver along.

Petrol is almost too valuable to burn......


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Post by Tim »

The 200w figure actually is based on the generally accepted average power output of a fit cyclist I believe. I would guess that the average person would be unlikley to be able to maintain that power level for a sustained period.

I have read that Lance Armstrong, at his peak, over a 1 hour race could sustain around 460w. Pro cyclists are generally in the region of 6.4w/kg over this sort of distance.

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Post by mickles »

Hi MikeG,
You wrote "Interesting. I might have a chat with the technical branch of the rego mob in Canberra and see what they say. Last time I asked them about electric vehicles, they sounded all confused and unsure... They've never done one before... ".

Oh yes they have, I have seen it! If it's motor is fixed it will probably be at our next meeting on August 14th.

      Dave.

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Post by MikeG »

The guy today refuted what the other guy said, and they have done a few including a Hilux.

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Post by hyper24 »

Your right about a waste of fossil fuels.
If you do the calcs, of an ICE motor being 25% effecient at getting the power to the ground.
Then a car weighing 1500kg and a driver weighign 80kgs.
The driver only weighs 5% of the overall weight.

So 5% of 25% is 1.25%

So out of all the fuel that goes into the car only 1.25% of it is actually used to move the driver!! you are wasting 99% of your fuel!!
Its quite shocking and a real eye open when you first realise this.
Last edited by hyper24 on Fri, 08 Aug 2008, 08:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by MikeG »

I saw a video of the white zombie on its first run with Lithium batteries... Makes me want to convert my 200SX or get soemthing like an NX Coupe and convert it with a warp 9 or some such... *sigh*

I better finish my 3kW PV array install first, and start saving my pennies...

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Post by Richo »

drowe67 wrote:Power seems to be much less at 50 km/hr, there seems to be a bit of a "knee" in the curve at that point where you start to need lots more power to punch thru the air.


It's an exponential curve so it is a reasonably smooth growth.
A knee is more what a diode curve looks like.
The actual continuous power required for any given car vs speed is quite easy to work out.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by hyper24 »

Richo is right, drag is related to the square root of the velocity being travelled.
So as speed goes up, the power goes up exponentially.
Before you start thinking "outside the box" you better have a good understanding of what's "inside the box".

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Post by I, Claudius »

hyper24 wrote: drag is related to the square root of the velocity being travelled.
So as speed goes up, the power goes up exponentially.

You meant square of the velocity, right?

Just to clarify, (aerodynamic) drag force is related to the square of the velocity - double the V means 4 times the force.

But power is force x velocity. So the power required to overcome the force of (aerodynamic) drag goes up as the cube! (ie. double the velocity, 8x the power)
Last edited by I, Claudius on Fri, 08 Aug 2008, 13:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by hyper24 »

ahaha yes of course,
I got the homer simpson quote stuck in my head

Homer: "The sum of the square roots of any two sides of an isocoleces triangle is equal to the square root of the remaining side."
Jerk: "That's a RIGHT triangle, you idiot."
Homer: "DOOOHHH!!!!"
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Post by Kecon »

Hi Mike G
Exitating idea, but it need some development I think ;-)

I have a 400W brushless Crystalyte Hub-motor without built-in reductiongear in a 26" frontwheel on a approx 35kg MTB. With 36V 10Ah NiMh pack, it is pure fun to drive and is running up to almost 30kmh, without pedalling. The batteryes last about 20km with some pedalling help. But even though it can start without pedalling, it is quite slow in starting and steep uphill I must help quite some pedalling.

I have a 250W brushed hubmotor too with built in reductiongear, but at the garden lawn(grass)it can not pull me around without pedalling-help !

So I think 200W is only enough for a 20-30kg light bicycle or a trike and only as a little motor help uphill.
But You can get these trikes with farings like a small bicycle-car with low wind resistance, which helps too.

This summer I tried the smartest bicycletrike I ever seen. The Dutch Aerorider, which is weighing about 65kg. But it have a 36v 600W brushless motor. And the Aerorider is already upgrading next series motor to a 48V Crystalyte 406 motor and with a strong controller with extra start-boost.
The Aerorider looks like a dream and is running OK, but I didn't like the special trike steering (felt unsecure)and inside it was very noisy.
Image

http://www.aerorider.com

Best hopes for your ideears Image

Best regards
Kjeld Holm
Denmark
Last edited by Kecon on Sat, 16 Aug 2008, 20:43, edited 1 time in total.
Best Regards

Kecon

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Post by Richo »

Good to hear from the other side of the world!

Still it would have to be registered to be allowed on the raods in Australia.
200W is the limit in Australia.

Looks like it needs wings and would fly!
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by juk »

In my experience 200W is worthless. I tend to average about 30km/h on a MTB all day everyday. I've got a 200W gearless hub motor on the bike for assistance in the work commute so i didn't need a shower upon arrival. However with a 25 knot headwind (46kph), the 200W hub motor and what ever i put out i struggle to maintain 20kph. My idea of electric assistance is to maintain about 30kph uphill and upwind, and about 35kph on the flat with moderate pedalling. 200W is a failure for this. I suggest going with 500-600W and the ability to modulate properly.

Kjell, tjena. Lycka till med din e-Bil.

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Post by Martin »

The 200 watt limit is a tease, but hardly worth getting excited about.

The authorities would probably prefer to have everything registered, but those oldies in their electric wheelchairs are still allowed to vote!

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Post by Tim »

Martin wrote: The authorities would probably prefer to have everything registered, but those oldies in their electric wheelchairs are still allowed to vote!

Actually, QLD make them register their electric wheelchairs!! Image
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Post by Electrocycle »

From memory, a legal powered bicycle must retain the pedals, as well as keeping under the 200w limit.

Incidentally, I have a dyno chart somewhere of me on a pushbike. I made 1.3hp for a very short time :)
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