Mercedes A and B class donors; stability control

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marcopolo
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Mercedes A and B class donors; stability control

Post by marcopolo »

Tritium_James wrote:
coulomb wrote:Perhaps you're overlooking the simple fact that for the Ford company to convert a Ford to an electric drivetrain is a lot easier than for one of us to do the same thing, since they have all the details on their CAN protocols at hand. No need for Ford to reverse engineer the protocol, their engineers can just go to the file or ask the engineer in the next cubicle who designed it.

Edit: so the point is, getting an already working ESC system to talk to an electric motor instead of an ICE is presumably not very hard, it's just you have to find the command that says "kill the spark now" and translate it to "command zero torque".


Yes, this is it exactly. In fact, since the CAN ID is about where the message came from (or more specifically, what it contains) rather than where it is going to, the ESC system itself probably doesn't need to change at all. They just need to program their electric motor ECU to look for CAN packets from the ESC system saying "I'm reaching the limit of what I can control with the brakes" type stuff, and respond in a similar ramp rate and amplitude to what the petrol ECU did.

As far as one of us doing the same thing - even if we did manage to reverse engineer the comms, and implement our own, can you trust it? I know Tesla spent months and months testing theirs, and I think that may have only been traction control, not even stability control? Not sure on that last point. But I know it involved trips to Sweden or somewhere for a month or two of testing on ice and snow.



Yes, I see... I think I can understand the complexity of the task. Although I would have felt that in the case of Tesla, Tesla would have had access to Lotus/Proton/Mitsubishi engineering and computer protocols.

The other problem at Vic-roads is the requirement for functioning airbags.

Now all this is not really a problem unless you live in Victoria. But the issue was raised at the last National conference of Auto Insurers, and will be an important item on the agenda this year with the Vic government controlled TAC, pushing for national standards for motor vehicle registration. While non-conforming comprehensive insurance can be got around, if the Vic model were adopted nationally, the third party component in Registration would effectively prevent EV conversions of late model vehicles and render any sales of conversions of any description very difficult.
I still think Vicroads have just invented a black market of illegally converted electric cars. Remember that we do not have annual RWC's in Vic. The only time a car is checked is when it is sold.

When was the last time anyone in authority (i.e. a policeman)looked under the bonnet of your car ??? For me, never in nearly 40 years of driving.
Very true.... that is until you are involved in a serious road accident.Then the penalties for driving an unregistered, unroad worthy, motor vehicle would kick in. Even if the accident was not your fault you would be held liable for the compensation for injuries to the other parties. TAC would and does pursue such claims relentlessly, with considerable legal resources. Especially if a passenger in your vehicle were injured because the airbag failed to deploy correctly.

Grrrrr....A pox on all their houses!


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Post by Digger11 »

marcopolo wrote:

Very true.... that is until you are involved in a serious road accident.Then the penalties for driving an unregistered, unroad worthy, motor vehicle would kick in. Even if the accident was not your fault you would be held liable for the compensation for injuries to the other parties. TAC would and does pursue such claims relentlessly, with considerable legal resources. Especially if a passenger in your vehicle were injured because the airbag failed to deploy correctly.

Grrrrr....A pox on all their houses!


I would still register and insure the car - there are 1,000's (maybe 100's of 1,000's) of modified cars driving around on our roads - they are not unregistered and probably not uninsured - but the modifications not noted anywhere.

Also, Airbags and ABS are disparate systems on most cars I have seen - they do not rely on the ICE motor at all. They are therefore easy to keep in working condition.

BTW, due to being a company director for a couple of not-for-profits, I have no assets in my name anyway. They can sue me to the cows come home.

Option 2, is to register at a friends/relatives house that lives Interstate - but this often attracts the Vic Pol's attention due to the Interstate plates.

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Post by woody »

It's looking like a back door to the same result as the clunker laws.

Australia has an average car age of 9.9 years.
Rego Check 2020 wrote: Inspector: your ABS isn't working
Me: Manufacturer won't give me the info how to fix it
Manufacturer: we'd prefer you buy a new car, sir.
Ideally the vehicle seller should be forced to choose between:
a) releasing any requested technical details; or
b) making the ABS / ESC work with whatever modifications the user makes.
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Post by marcopolo »

woody wrote: Ideally the vehicle seller should be forced to choose between:a) releasing any requested technical details; or
b) making the ABS / ESC work with whatever modifications the user makes.


Meantime ... sadly, in the real world, this is unlikely to occur!

Digger, I love your spirit of defiance! But simply not having any money will not exempt you from the onerous penalties of defying the Road Safety Act. Try, as I might, I can't think of any plausible argument for mitigation that the Beak would accept in defence of a road user whom it is alleged by and ardent prosecutor

" did wilfully and with aforethought, endanger the lives and safety of his fellow citizens, including small children, I repeat, (stern, manly, indignant, look by the persecutor)the safety and lives of precious, innocent, small children (and small fluffy animals)( long meaningful pause,wiping of eye)! The defendant is not here, your honour, as an unfortunate victim of circumstance. No indeed not! You will hear from Snr Constable Plodnick, who I may add was thoroughly traumatised by the callous disregard for human life displayed by the defendant, when the defendant boasted that he is so morally bankrupt as to order his affairs to escape this courts rightfully punitive prerogatives! In sentencing you Honour may wish to reflect that like terrorists and drug dealers this defendant considers himself exempt from your honours wisdom!"

Bloody hard for your lawyer to mitigate, especially as I don't think it is that easy to ensure the airbags are working exactly to specifications, without crash testing!

(But, never mind your lawyer usually gets to share with the prosecutor the excellent luncheon red wine, covered by the insurance companies expense account!)

As for insurance, why bother? The minute TAC reported the vehicle unrego'ed' and unroadworthy, by intent, any policy would become invalid and void.

But, hey I'll join you on the barricades!

Actually, this really does need to have some lobbying done on a political level.




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Post by a4x4kiwi »

Probably wont be any cheap Chinese cars in Vic then.

See other thread

I smell the automotive lobby rat.
p.s. I really am getting suspicious in my middle age!
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Post by marcopolo »

a4x4kiwi wrote:I smell the automotive lobby rat.


I can't see the Automotive lobby bothering about a handful of converters who don't threaten new car sales. As I've said before this would appear to be just bureaucratic or governmental nanny state concern.

The Victorian government is extraordinarily sensitive, like the Feds to car manufacture union concerns, but I don't think this is shared by the Automakers themselves. They are far more conscious of cheap competition, from countries with much lower standards than are required by Australian makers.

Still, quality issues are usually, thankfully, sorted by the high standards of Australian ADR compliance. Great Wall Motors may have real compliance problems with the charges forecast in the new 2012 ADR's.

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Post by Squiggles »

a4x4kiwi wrote: p.s. I really am getting suspicious in my middle age!


What took you so long?

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Post by marcopolo »

Instead of the 'A' or 'B' class Mercedes,why not consider the Chrysler PT Cruiser? This vehicle was originally designed to incorporate an EV version.

In fact Global Vehicles, the EV 'neighbourhood' vehicle division of Chrysler, actually produced and trialled an EV taxi version of the PT Cruiser in New York!

The EV PT, was said to have a max speed of 110 klm, and a range of 280 klm! Now that may be a little on the incredible side, but setting aside the PT's looks and 1400kg kerb weight, it does seem to be an intriguing vehicle to convert.

My next question, is obvious! If a fully functioning EV version could be obtained, with the ECU operating the EV components and providing ABS,ESC (ESP being Chrysler)airbags et al..etc..

Then how difficult would it be to simply clone the ECU 'Rosetta stone"????

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Post by Electrocycle »

marcopolo wrote:In fact Global Vehicles, the EV 'neighbourhood' vehicle division of Chrysler, actually produced and trialled an EV taxi version of the PT Cruiser in New York!
I've actually seen that one - at the New York Auto Show when I was working on electronics for NY Taxis in 2007 :)

Image

Image
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Post by marty11 »

maybe the yellow taxi didnt quite make the 280 kms.. more like 40 miles..

http://green.autoblog.com/2007/07/16/el ... s-ny-taxi/

also, here is a $14,500 usd conversion option for a pt cruiser, only 40 mile range ..

www.detroitev.com/kits.php
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Post by coulomb »

Electrocycle wrote: I've actually seen that one - at the New York Auto Show when I was working on electronics for NY Taxis in 2007 :)

Are the Cruisers battery placement friendly? It's hard to beat a 210mm high false floor...
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Post by coulomb »

Electrocycle wrote:Image
I don't recognise the drivetrain. If I had to guess, I'd say AC Propulsion. Close?
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Post by Electrocycle »

I don't recall any identifying info on it about the drive train, but AC propulsion seems the most likely.
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Post by Tritium_James »

No, it's not theirs either. The ACP system is a much bigger box, and has the DC/DC built into it.

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Post by Digger11 »

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/sh ... hp?t=44646

Canada first - Victoria to follow (via mandatory ESC, which is nigh impossible on EV conversions).

Brumby and Co. must really be upset that they were not the first in the world to effectively ban something.

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Post by a4x4kiwi »

Regarding the vic-roads discussion. Here is the link to the . information.

It states "
From 1 January 2011, when new vehicles are first registered in Victoria" (emphasis is mine)

So I think the Victorians should be safe with their conversions as long as they don't convert a car newer than a Jan 2011 , and of course don't disable any existing safety equipment. As has been stated previously, it will be harder to find donor vehicles as time goes by.

Marcopolo, perhaps the Vic-Roads rep you spoke to was mistaken.
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Post by Digger11 »

Kiwi,

I agree with your interpretation (and hope like hell it is correct). Let's see if Marcopolo has any other info.

Funny thing is, if they effectively ban electric car conversions then I am going to go back to my original plan of building a GT40 Kit car.
Good to see the Labor Govt. is steering me to the V8 monster.

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Post by Johny »

Hi Digger. I have been driving classic cars for some years now and have registered them from an unregistered state etc. I have found a simple rule generally applies.
Any features that the car was manufactured with must still function when you put a car back on the road.
There are usually no extra stipulations, the exception being front seat belts. For instance, I have a 1967 Humber Super Snipe that I drive daily while I wait for the EV Vogue to be finished and VicRoads did not require rear seat belts to be fitted to either car (they are anyway).

This Stability Control ruling just prohibits cars after 2010, there are many years previous from that to choose from.

Of course there is a possibility that a manufacturer may come "on board" for a professional conversion enterprise. For instance the trial in WA that EV Works is/may be involved in may require getting ESC up and running with the cars. Since it's a government trial it may be enough incentive for the car manufacturer to help with the integration of the electric drive train - at least with information.
Last edited by Johny on Thu, 06 May 2010, 06:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by marcopolo »

a4x4kiwi wrote: Regarding the vic-roads discussion. Here is the link to the . information.

It states "
From 1 January 2011, when new vehicles are first registered in Victoria" (emphasis is mine)

So I think the Victorians should be safe with their conversions as long as they don't convert a car newer than a Jan 2011 , and of course don't disable any existing safety equipment. As has been stated previously, it will be harder to find donor vehicles as time goes by.

Marcopolo, perhaps the Vic-Roads rep you spoke to was mistaken.
Mistaken, well, he certainly had an attitude!I would imagine that the interpretation could be construed either way.

Find a friendly official and it's the interpretation you surmise, find an unfriendly official and the 'new' becomes as an EV, and 'first' becomes first registered as an EV.

I have hesitated getting a formal ruling from Vic-roads CEO, Gary Liddle, since an unfavourable ruling or Ministers directive may cut off the ability of friendly official to cooperate.

Without being to political or biased, I prefer the slightly mad, Jeff Kennett, at least if you could convince him of the value of something he gave 100% support!

Rudd and Brumby love to have EV photo opportunities, but no real action, or worse, hypocritical opposition!

Bah! A pox on both their houses!   

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Post by Johny »

marcopolo wrote:I have hesitated getting a formal ruling from Vic-roads CEO, Gary Liddle, since an unfavourable ruling or Ministers directive may cut off the ability of friendly official to cooperate.
I would prefer you didn't rock the boat Marco - at least until I have VicRoads approval on my EV. Image

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Post by Digger11 »

Marco, I think that it is a good idea you have to not get an official ruling. Most things in life are a bit grey - and it is often best to leave them as such.
A bureaucrat with a strict ruling is very dangerous......
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Post by Squiggles »

A bureaucrat that breaths is dangerous!

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Post by Johny »

Squiggles wrote: A bureaucrat that breaths is dangerous!
Ahhh sedition - dovetails nicely with Marco's pox curses.

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Post by marcopolo »

"What is that noise I hear, is it the the sound of impertinent rebellion!?"

Nay Sire, you must make haste, I fear it is the sound of revolution!

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Post by bga »

a4x4kiwi wrote: Regarding the vic-roads discussion. Here is the link to the . information.

It states "
From 1 January 2011, when new vehicles are first registered in Victoria" (emphasis is mine)

So I think the Victorians should be safe with their conversions as long as they don't convert a car newer than a Jan 2011 , and of course don't disable any existing safety equipment. As has been stated previously, it will be harder to find donor vehicles as time goes by.

Marcopolo, perhaps the Vic-Roads rep you spoke to was mistaken.
The 'first registered' is the important bit. Vehicle conversions are either classified as modifications or, if the changes are too great, a new vehicle.

It is inconceivable that Vic roads, or even their most idiotic zealots, would consider a typical electric conversion to be anything more than an engine change. Isn't this what NCOP-14 is all about?

I agree that late model conversions are a real problem with all of the vehicle safety functions built into the engine manglement computer.

Is a better way to fake the sensors? Perhaps with a controller that crudely models the engine (how crude?) and provides interface feedback and analogs of the sensors and actuators as needed. The idea is to stay with the lowest level data so that the can't-bus may be avoidable. If all of the panic lights stay out and the instruments work sensibly, it would probably be a success.
Electric throttles and the like would be more difficult, I suspect.

Modern motors tend to have one or two big plugs so the engine package can easily be mated to the body. I was thinking of a dongle that plugs into these.

I don't know where nanny's push for pillows puts the ICV (individually constructed vehicle) sector. One hope that we have is that, since this is becoming commonplace in the, there is an impetus arrive at a solution. Maybe sense will prevail, but I'm not confident of this.

If ICVs get airbags and ESC, how do the regulators verify that these work according to the design.

Their usual approach is to use a long-winded standard, written by industry hacks and designed to keep competition out by making the tests un-necessarily complex and expensive to perform.

Hardware-wise, ESC controllers certainly shouldn't be very expensive with sensitive solid state accelerometers (3-axis), rate gyros and capable microprocessors all costing only a couple of dollars each. The software would be a bit tricky, though.
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