Range Extender

Open for any sort of non-technical discussion regarding EVs
Tritium_James
Senior Member
Posts: 683
Joined: Wed, 04 Mar 2009, 17:15
Real Name: James Kennedy
Contact:

Range Extender

Post by Tritium_James » Sun, 09 Aug 2009, 03:00

Well if the idea looks ok, what would you substitute in place of the alternator?
A main drive motor/controller that can do regen? Adding that alternator looked like a massive amount of work, and at the end of the day you've got a pretty useless power level and a hard to control on/off setup. Why not just do it properly in the first place?

User avatar
EV2Go
Senior Member
Posts: 2059
Joined: Wed, 16 Jul 2008, 00:21
Real Name: Paul
Location: Brisbane 1963

Range Extender

Post by EV2Go » Sun, 09 Aug 2009, 03:34

but doesn't that mean AC? which basically makes the whole idea useless... The whole point of an alternator style regen gives you flexable recharging, light weight, reasonably cheap etc.

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 3780
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Range Extender

Post by coulomb » Mon, 10 Aug 2009, 05:34

EV2Go wrote: but doesn't that mean AC?

Yes, or separately excited DC with a controller that can do sepex and regen, and programming that controller with the "field map" for your motor. Some folks on diyelectriccar seem to be getting close to revealing how to do this:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/sh ... 283p3.html

See also earlier pages. It seems that the controller needs just pretty basic information: max current on the armature and field, and two slopes on the armature voltage verses field current graph: in the linear region, and where saturated. Oh and where saturation starts. So the controller basically models the curve as two straight lines; you give it the slope of both, and where the second one starts.

In an EV which retains the original alternator instead of using a DC-DC to charge the auxilliary battery, you can gain a little by getting the alternator to charge the aux battery as often as possible coinciding with the brake light. That's whether you have regen or not.

For more power than a truck alternator, it might be possible to use a medium sized DC motor with separately excited field. It probably needs a diode to prevent the motor from sucking power. You control the regen with the field current. But a medium sized DC motor is probably too much weight to carry around; only one of the motors will ever be used at once (one for motoring, one for generating). It makes more sense to get the same motor to do both.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

juk
Groupie
Posts: 179
Joined: Sun, 02 Mar 2008, 02:53
Real Name: Craig
Location: Perth

Range Extender

Post by juk » Wed, 12 Aug 2009, 17:41

Check out this for a range extender:

http://www.propulsiontech.com/apu.html

User avatar
acmotor
Senior Member
Posts: 3603
Joined: Thu, 26 Apr 2007, 03:30
Real Name: Tuarn
Location: Perth,Australia

Range Extender

Post by acmotor » Wed, 12 Aug 2009, 18:12

It should be stated at some stage, just to keep all the range extending ideas in perspective, that the ideal range extender is a good battery, better battery, yet to be made battery etc ! Image
iMiEV MY12     110,230km in pure Electric and loving it !

Squiggles
Senior Member
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed, 22 Apr 2009, 03:19
Real Name: Neil
Location: Newcastle NSW

Range Extender

Post by Squiggles » Wed, 12 Aug 2009, 18:33

acmotor wrote: It should be stated at some stage, just to keep all the range extending ideas in perspective, that the ideal range extender is a good battery, better battery, yet to be made battery etc ! Image


Or yet to be invented highly efficient and economically viable fuel cell.

User avatar
acmotor
Senior Member
Posts: 3603
Joined: Thu, 26 Apr 2007, 03:30
Real Name: Tuarn
Location: Perth,Australia

Range Extender

Post by acmotor » Wed, 12 Aug 2009, 18:40

Hmmm, I'd put my money on the battery or ultracap.
I'm over fuel cells. I thought once that they were great. The infrastructure in both EV and community is a big limitation though.

e.g. double the prius ICE efficiency may be equal to a fuel cell potential efficiency and what have you got ? a big complex mess !
Just get the batteries right ! Image
iMiEV MY12     110,230km in pure Electric and loving it !

Squiggles
Senior Member
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed, 22 Apr 2009, 03:19
Real Name: Neil
Location: Newcastle NSW

Range Extender

Post by Squiggles » Wed, 12 Aug 2009, 18:49

Your probably right but I do like the concept of a backyard digester producing ethanol from household waste. The ethanol is used as the fuel for the fuel cell that charges the batteries.

The liquid waste from the digester can be used to fertilise the vege garden that produces the household waste.......

User avatar
woody
Senior Member
Posts: 1715
Joined: Sat, 21 Jun 2008, 02:03
Real Name: Anthony Wood
Location: Mt Colah

Range Extender

Post by woody » Wed, 12 Aug 2009, 18:51

While we're dreaming, I'll just add in on-road charging, either 3rd rail, inductive, or a generator truck which drives up behind you and pumps a few amps in.

Also a 4-6 minute charge (10-15C) is a great substitute.
Planned EV: '63 Cortina using AC and LiFePO4 Battery Pack

Squiggles
Senior Member
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed, 22 Apr 2009, 03:19
Real Name: Neil
Location: Newcastle NSW

Range Extender

Post by Squiggles » Wed, 12 Aug 2009, 19:00

I have a concept for battery electric buses that I believe is viable, if I had money to burn I would be working at it....sadly that is not a situation that is likely to occur!

User avatar
Johny
Senior Member
Posts: 3729
Joined: Mon, 23 Jun 2008, 16:26
Real Name: John Wright
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Range Extender

Post by Johny » Wed, 12 Aug 2009, 19:04

woody wrote: While we're dreaming, I'll just add in on-road charging, either 3rd rail, inductive, or a generator truck which drives up behind you and pumps a few amps in.
Also a 4-6 minute charge (10-15C) is a great substitute.
Ahh woody - don't you wish you lived in Melbourne with trams that run on 600 VDC.
Image

Squiggles
Senior Member
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed, 22 Apr 2009, 03:19
Real Name: Neil
Location: Newcastle NSW

Range Extender

Post by Squiggles » Wed, 12 Aug 2009, 19:16

How do they control the turn outs (points) on the tram tracks?

User avatar
Johny
Senior Member
Posts: 3729
Joined: Mon, 23 Jun 2008, 16:26
Real Name: John Wright
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Range Extender

Post by Johny » Wed, 12 Aug 2009, 19:21

Squiggles wrote: How do they control the turn outs (points) on the tram tracks?
Well they only do it at the terminus and last I saw the driver gets out with a little pole and jams it into the points switch and pushes hard.

User avatar
acmotor
Senior Member
Posts: 3603
Joined: Thu, 26 Apr 2007, 03:30
Real Name: Tuarn
Location: Perth,Australia

Range Extender

Post by acmotor » Wed, 12 Aug 2009, 19:32

Squiggles wrote: How do they control the turn outs (points) on the tram tracks?


Electro motive force Image
iMiEV MY12     110,230km in pure Electric and loving it !

Squiggles
Senior Member
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed, 22 Apr 2009, 03:19
Real Name: Neil
Location: Newcastle NSW

Range Extender

Post by Squiggles » Wed, 12 Aug 2009, 19:49

Johny wrote:
Squiggles wrote: How do they control the turn outs (points) on the tram tracks?
Well they only do it at the terminus and last I saw the driver gets out with a little pole and jams it into the points switch and pushes hard.


I thought the drivers could change them from the cab, looked like it last time I was in Melbourne...could be wrong of course.

User avatar
Johny
Senior Member
Posts: 3729
Joined: Mon, 23 Jun 2008, 16:26
Real Name: John Wright
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Range Extender

Post by Johny » Wed, 12 Aug 2009, 20:30

Squiggles wrote:I thought the drivers could change them from the cab, looked like it last time I was in Melbourne...could be wrong of course.
When I said "last I saw" I really meant it - it may have been 20 years ago. You may well be correct! Image

User avatar
woody
Senior Member
Posts: 1715
Joined: Sat, 21 Jun 2008, 02:03
Real Name: Anthony Wood
Location: Mt Colah

Range Extender

Post by woody » Fri, 14 Aug 2009, 16:02

Crazy idea #8476:

Generating for an AC motor:

For generating, switch in a second ACIM motor of same specs in parallel with the drive motor.

This second motor is connected to an ICE.

As you speed up, it starts the ICE.

Carefully add more juice to the ICE, it starts to lead the VFD's sine wave and put more juice into the system, enough to power the wheels and perhaps recharge the batteries.

Unknowns - will the VFD cope with this...
Planned EV: '63 Cortina using AC and LiFePO4 Battery Pack

User avatar
Johny
Senior Member
Posts: 3729
Joined: Mon, 23 Jun 2008, 16:26
Real Name: John Wright
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Range Extender

Post by Johny » Fri, 14 Aug 2009, 16:28

woody wrote: Unknowns - will the VFD cope with this...
VFD go Image
and, you loose control over the traction motor because your generator motor is putting a real sine wave into it and now YOU CAN'T STOP!!! Image
Sorry to be negative...a second VFD solves it all though $$$

Squiggles
Senior Member
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed, 22 Apr 2009, 03:19
Real Name: Neil
Location: Newcastle NSW

Range Extender

Post by Squiggles » Fri, 14 Aug 2009, 16:42

Synchronising might be an issue.

User avatar
woody
Senior Member
Posts: 1715
Joined: Sat, 21 Jun 2008, 02:03
Real Name: Anthony Wood
Location: Mt Colah

Range Extender

Post by woody » Fri, 14 Aug 2009, 17:00

Yep ebay small VFD plus 2nd hand / scrap emotor will be cheaper than a 2nd traction motor usually anyway.
Planned EV: '63 Cortina using AC and LiFePO4 Battery Pack

alex
Noobie
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun, 28 Oct 2007, 00:06
Location: Australia

Range Extender

Post by alex » Tue, 25 Aug 2009, 05:34

http://www.propulsiontech.com/apu.html
Yes, that kind of thing looks promising (and expensive..)

An ICE seems to be the best of the ideas for range extending at this stage :/

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3737
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Range Extender

Post by Richo » Fri, 22 Jan 2010, 06:53

Looking through a local classified paper I see an add for free standing petrol motors.
$799 for 15HP (11kW) with clutch and electric start.
It's right at the bottom of the page.
So you would need to couple this to a 5.5kW 4-pole AC induction motor.
Which would be another $500-600 new.
Then you'd need an 11kW VFD ~$1700.
So maybe $3k + trailer and misc parts to get it together.

Another place also sells them upto 20HP (15kW) for $1190.

Then you'd have hybrid range freedom in your eV for those odd long trips out of town.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

Lectrickery
Noobie
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu, 04 Jun 2009, 18:24
Real Name: Neil
Location: Sydney

Range Extender

Post by Lectrickery » Fri, 22 Jan 2010, 07:11

Wouldnt that then make the car have to pass an emissions test as well as the RTA inspection. I mean I have no doubt that this motor puts out far less emissions than the cars normal ICE but just wondering if there is a separate lot of rules for Hybrids to total EV's???

User avatar
EV2Go
Senior Member
Posts: 2059
Joined: Wed, 16 Jul 2008, 00:21
Real Name: Paul
Location: Brisbane 1963

Range Extender

Post by EV2Go » Fri, 22 Jan 2010, 13:02

Lectrickery wrote: Wouldnt that then make the car have to pass an emissions test as well as the RTA inspection. I mean I have no doubt that this motor puts out far less emissions than the cars normal ICE but just wondering if there is a separate lot of rules for Hybrids to total EV's???
No the car wouldn't but the trailer might, then again it would probably only have to comply with the same regulations that those commercially produced gensets would.

Lectrickery
Noobie
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu, 04 Jun 2009, 18:24
Real Name: Neil
Location: Sydney

Range Extender

Post by Lectrickery » Fri, 22 Jan 2010, 14:35

Oh Sorry yes I was thinking you were all talking of mounting it in the car permanently. Sorry got a bit out of touch with the thread. Still pulling a trailer is going to ad more weight and wind resistance to the entire vehicle so it would need to be a hefty Gen set or you would still run out of juice in the batteries. Unless you did a lot of downhill coasting and had regen as well I suppose. I like the idea of having Large Tesla Coils on the side of the road and having a power antenna on the roof of the car. Image Image Image Image Image

Post Reply