2 Speed Gearbox

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Thalass
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Post by Thalass » Sat, 25 Apr 2009, 22:48

I never thought of that... The subaru transfer boxes are only a slight reduction in low range on the newer models. 1:1.2, maybe? The older ones are a higher ratio, but I can't remember the exact details. I'll have to look it up. They're still too big to do direct to diff in RWD, I think.

For a two speed gearbox with a high ratio low gear you might be able to look into the rock crawler scene. They take regular landrovers and such, and stick huge engines in them with really low gearing. Multiple tranfer cases and stuff, I think. That would be both strong, and a good ratio on the low gear. Of course it could be too low, and no doubt would be crazy heavy.
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Post by Arniem » Fri, 15 May 2009, 03:51

I've also been researching the idea of replacing an ICE transmission with something simpler, like a two speed planetary gearbox. The one that I think shows the most promise is the Blackbox from Northwest Fabworks in Canada http://www.northwestfab.com/blackbox.html   It costs USD1600, and runs at 2.7:1 and 1:1. It is meant as a transfer box, and is designed to fit between the transmission and transfer case of a 4WD to enable super-low gearing for rock crawling. I spoke to the guys last weekend. They advise it is not intended to allow gear changes while under power (there are no wet clutches in the box, so no faster than 10km/h, they said), but as one of the posts above suggested, there must be some way of synching the revs of the input and output shafts to signal when a gear change to be made on the fly. They were willing to make a small change to the unit to allow a "neutral" position to be created, to temporarily disengage the gearing from input and output shafts. It weighs about 20kg, is short and round, and looks ideal to attach to the end of a Warp9 or such (with an adapter), and slide the whole combined unit into the transmission tunnel up to the propshaft.

Other boxes I found were from Lenco, and Klune, but their drawbacks were noise (Lenco uses straight-cut gears), questions about long life (these boxes are designed for 1/4 drag racing, where it's all over in seconds), and cost.

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Post by coulomb » Fri, 15 May 2009, 05:32

It doesn't seem to say how much torque it will take. But I guess if it's designed for 4WDs, it should handle most electric motors we would be using.
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Post by EV2Go » Fri, 15 May 2009, 23:48

Doesn't mention maximum revs, but it looks the part. Be nice if they did a spline option that fit over the end of the transwarp Image

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Post by gttool » Sat, 16 May 2009, 00:17

Have you ever looked at the electric over drives from early volvos triumphs was shown one only the other day quite compact and have a flange mount which would be very easy to adapt to the rear of a motor
geoff

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Post by EV2Go » Sat, 16 May 2009, 00:25

Although that works out to about $2100 Aussie + frieght you have the piece of mind of knowing it is all brand new, no wear, and made out of hardened steels for durability.

I would seriously consider it if I went down that track. Would have been nice to have seen some pics of the plantarys inside.

I wonder what the shift would be like...

Edit:

Found one on the main page...

Image
Last edited by EV2Go on Fri, 15 May 2009, 14:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Goombi » Sat, 16 May 2009, 01:27

Nice,Why not use standard gearbox and drive the car as it shoul be.
China makes 2 speed gearboxes up to 65 km/h If you looking for higher range and using 11 Kw motors think twice.. What is the advantage.. you don't travel faster or furher, this discussion has been going on round and round and becaus of its a circle it will never reach the end. My conclussion is -- go standard. None of us have the resources to be spending thousands and thousands.. on e theary without hard testing trials one speed to 50 Km/h need 3rd gear standard gearbox from 50- 100 need top gear the motor has to be able to propell up to 4000rpm.
The space between One gear and the second will eat your battery power very quickly. Its been done and proven not succesful.
I wish you luck My energy would be better directed elswhere..

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Post by CZal » Sat, 16 May 2009, 01:50

Hello all,

I'm still interested in the transfer case option... I believe you can only shift up at speed? But even so, you really only need low gear for stand still take off (from the lights) Particularly if you can do a rebuild with different (better) gear ratios....

Have you tried shifting between low and high in Red Suzi ACMotor?


To me a small 4WD chassis, AC powered going 'direct' to a two speed transfer box would have to be the perfect base

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Post by antiscab » Sat, 16 May 2009, 01:53

Goombi wrote: The space between One gear and the second will eat your battery power very quickly. Its been done and proven not succesful.


Where/When has it been proved not successful? why was it unsuccessful?
what were the definitions of success and failure?

The space between 1st and second *wont* "eat your battery" any faster than any other method unless your controller doesn't enforce a battery side current limit. (which if it is of poor enough design not to, you want to be looking hard at what other essential things it doesn't do)

you can either regulate power delivery eletrically, mechanically, or both.
if you do it mechanically with the original gearbox, you limit yourself power wise to less than what the original petrol engine can deliver.

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Post by Goombi » Sat, 16 May 2009, 02:05

Thalass,
My Brumby will have NO subaru transmission (Gearbox)only diff and 5 speed hi lux gearbox-- No front wheel drive 11 kw.DC Motor 144volt and Gas powered 240 volt alternator system to charge batteries while travelling A true simple HYBRID under 10 thousand dollars Easy to fix No computers No complicated electronics Just standard Conversion.
Why Brumbi? the capacity is 400Kg load in Ute ==plus
2 passengers and 80 Kg extra 1650 kg total loaded Will be well under. Tha suspention of Brumby Rear is adjustable and the Tortion bar can hold extra load. No need for 4 wheel drive and low range. This brumbi will be simply an experimental conversion One off..

By using standard gearbox one has the options to handle any terrain steep drives and hills.
Thalass I will give a race --who will finish the BRUMBI First.
Cheers
Last edited by Goombi on Fri, 15 May 2009, 16:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Electrocycle » Sat, 16 May 2009, 17:46

gttool wrote: Have you ever looked at the electric over drives from early volvos triumphs was shown one only the other day quite compact and have a flange mount which would be very easy to adapt to the rear of a motor
geoff

ah yes, heaps of old cars had a overdrive box, which could be worth a try.
Usually they're 1:1 in "low" gear and a step up when in overdrive, but maybe they could be run backwards?
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Post by AMPrentice » Sat, 16 May 2009, 19:28

After all this talk what are the 2 best ratios for the street?

1:1 stays but what about take off/crawl 2:1, 1.5:1, 1.35:1 or 1.275:1?

Since most cars do well on 3rd and 4th gear Id guessed around
1.25 for take off on hills or crawling up driveways and 1:1 for
everything else.

Im thinking electric overdrives are better for RWD though meaning
from what I understand/dont is that it can change the ratio on the
fly with about 30amps of power for the solenoids.

http://www.canleyclassics.com/infodatab ... rivesjtype

Image

jag, triumph and volvo

Image
All about overdrives
overdrive info very detailed!!!!

Switch "on" - OD "in". Switch "off" - OD "out". No cables, no extra gear shift levers...just
one switch mounted under the gear shift knob! Sweet!


Image
Last edited by AMPrentice on Sat, 16 May 2009, 10:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Squiggles » Sat, 16 May 2009, 20:28

Some MGBs had overdrive units. I guess they are a little hard to obtain though.

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Post by gttool » Sun, 17 May 2009, 00:22

The mgb would use the same unit

Forgot to say they are worth around the $1000.00 mark for a unreconditioned unit they are a planetary drive with a cone clutch

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Post by AMPrentice » Sun, 17 May 2009, 04:01

supposedly there are plenty available in 80s volvos
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Post by EV2Go » Mon, 18 May 2009, 23:54

Finally I think we have achieved out of the box thinking... the reason I started the thread... to get away from thinking that the factory gearbox that requires a clutch to work properly is the only option Image

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Post by Electrocycle » Tue, 19 May 2009, 00:22

gearbox or not, it's just a matter of a pinion :P
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Post by AMPrentice » Tue, 19 May 2009, 02:54

Image

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Post by Arniem » Tue, 19 May 2009, 03:25

As EV2Go has as his signoff - "The more I think about this the more I come to realise there is no right or wrong way of doing things, only ways that suit your desired outcome a little more favourably".

Why have I been looking at completely replacing the car's standard gearbox with a special purpose two speed like a Blackbox?:

1) Lighter. The standard box weighs around 70-100kg. The Blackbox weighs around 20kg. You can do things with that weight saving...
2) More efficient. No stats to prove this, other than thinking that with fewer parts spinning around than in the standard box there has to be some %points saving in driveline efficiency
3) Space. This is the big one - a Warp9 with a Blackbox bolted together, along with an adapter of some sort, comes in at around 66cm in length. It means the motor-trans combo could slide into the existing transmission tunnel (probably not completely, but further in than with the standard trans), freeing up much more of the engine bay area for batteries (I'm only considering LiIons here).

And of course, this only applies to RWD cars. There are some beautifully engineered older RWDs, like BMWs, Mercedes, Volvos, Jags, and even well looked after Commodores and Falcons, etc, that have the space, body strength, and GVM limit, to become very comfortable EVs. Their overall weight will be the range killer...

Sure there are drawbacks: Need for special brackets to mount the assembly; you will probably need a custom shorty propshaft to connect up to the standard propshaft; the gear changing gets messy on account of no synchro between the gears; extra linkage to make the shift happen; the need to find an engineer who will work with you on getting the design right, ready for approval. All part of the fun of thinking outside the box...

I'm intrigued about the external overdrive units, but aren't they meant to offer 1:1 and 0.7:1 or so? My reckoning shows that the ideal *overall* ratios (ie. including the diff) for city and motorway driving is around 8-10:1 for low, and 3-5:1 for high. Sort of corresponds with 2nd and 4th using standard gearboxes.

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Post by Thalass » Tue, 19 May 2009, 04:10

Goombi wrote: Thalass,
My Brumby will have NO subaru transmission (Gearbox)only diff and 5 speed hi lux gearbox-- No front wheel drive 11 kw.DC Motor 144volt and Gas powered 240 volt alternator system to charge batteries while travelling A true simple HYBRID under 10 thousand dollars Easy to fix No computers No complicated electronics Just standard Conversion.
Why Brumbi? the capacity is 400Kg load in Ute ==plus
2 passengers and 80 Kg extra 1650 kg total loaded Will be well under. Tha suspention of Brumby Rear is adjustable and the Tortion bar can hold extra load. No need for 4 wheel drive and low range. This brumbi will be simply an experimental conversion One off..

By using standard gearbox one has the options to handle any terrain steep drives and hills.
Thalass I will give a race --who will finish the BRUMBI First.
Cheers



Haha! You're on. No doubt you'll finish first. My house isn't even finished yet, and there's a bunch of stuff to do there before my missus will give me permission to start the project.

As far as my conversion goes, I want to use two induction motors, so I shouldn't need any gearboxes - even off road. If I did I would need two, and that brings a whole new mess of troubles if I was to change gears on the fly. I'm fairly certain that the induction motor would be fine at low speed off road. If anything I would have to electronically change the accelerator input to have a "low range" of 0-40%. But I'll work that out when I get there.

Also this is the last car I will ever own, so I'm going to do it Right. Which means it'll probably take a couple of years to do, if my dad's Kingswood project is anything to go by. (Four years and counting, I think it's up to)

I also want to do something similar with a generator in the tray. Though my work colleagues have convinced me that a small diesel is the way to go.

But I'll be interested to see how you do it! You might cop some flak from subaru people for the all wheel drive thing, but not too much Image
Last edited by Thalass on Mon, 18 May 2009, 18:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by EV2Go » Tue, 19 May 2009, 17:27

AMPrentice wrote: Image

There is not reason not to pursue the brainstorming.


Yes lets just go on believing the world is flat and not question the staus quo Image

There is always reason to speculate even if there is no derived outcome... If nothing else it may one day spawn an idea... "Hey I remember reading... maybe I could do something like that"

Just because it may not be relevant to the moment doesn't mean it doesnt have a place.
Arniem wrote: As EV2Go has as his signoff - "The more I think about this the more I come to realise there is no right or wrong way of doing things, only ways that suit your desired outcome a little more favourably".

Why have I been looking at completely replacing the car's standard gearbox with a special purpose two speed like a Blackbox?:

1) Lighter. The standard box weighs around 70-100kg. The Blackbox weighs around 20kg. You can do things with that weight saving...
2) More efficient. No stats to prove this, other than thinking that with fewer parts spinning around than in the standard box there has to be some %points saving in driveline efficiency
3) Space. This is the big one - a Warp9 with a Blackbox bolted together, along with an adapter of some sort, comes in at around 66cm in length. It means the motor-trans combo could slide into the existing transmission tunnel (probably not completely, but further in than with the standard trans), freeing up much more of the engine bay area for batteries (I'm only considering LiIons here).
This is exactly why I feel it is necessary to explore the options.

Scary for you Arniem that your on the same wave length as me Image but these are the same things I was considering...

Think about the oportunities for better weight distribution that just aren't possible with a conventional gearbox.

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Post by Sparky Brother » Wed, 20 May 2009, 04:12

Guys. Call me crazy but as long as it is almost all about gaining power at start and going a light as possible I`ve been thinking what if we get a second rewound for bigger power Direct online ACIM bolted down onto the back of the diff which hopefully will give us the power we otherwise are hoping to get from the two speed GB. Even the Black Box weighs 20kg (quite nice actually) so you don`t really get something for nothing.

I just think of this second unit as something that should stay ON for less than a minute. the other question would be what device will produce the voltage (say 415VAC) necessary for the drill

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Post by antiscab » Wed, 20 May 2009, 08:52

ACIM has very poor torque density.
if you were going to take this approach, you would use a high torque motor such as a series wound DC or a perm amg AC (BLDC).

of course, if you do that, you may aswell run it all the time, as electric motors run more efficient at a lighter load.

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Post by Squiggles » Wed, 20 May 2009, 13:45

Ha, an all electric hybrid! AC drive with DC boost. Cute.

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Post by AMPrentice » Wed, 20 May 2009, 17:14

New there was a reason to continue brainstorming Image

Do others agree that 2nd and 4th are the best gears for most setups?

eg. 2:1 and 1:1?
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