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recharge points long term view

Posted: Thu, 12 Mar 2009, 17:47
by HeadsUp

i believe ( and hope ) that within 2 years we will have a few brands of viable electric cars available to market in australia

3 - 4 years we could even see market saturation


why dont we structure an awareness program to stimulate councils or businesses into providing charge points in carparks , so even if they dont introduce them right away , they can at least design and plan infrastructure to include them at a later date.

( usually " a later date " for councils means 20 years unless they get a bribe , but we have to try dont we ? )


places where charge points could be installed ?

council carparks , where 2 - 6 bays of coin slot metered charge points could be installed , probably near the entrance next to handicapped parking so its easy to find.

maybe Mcdonalds or KFC could be pursuaded to introduce a couple so they can claim to be green ..... ( environmentally trendy )

whatever business entities finally come to the party , whenever that might be , ideally it should be something with national stores in multitudes of locations


it is possible that mcdonalds /KFC would say no , because they want only short time customers who rush in , eat and then go somewhere else to feel sick afterwards , instead of parking there for 2-3 hours recharge


who else has suggestions for location of charge points ?

coles or woolworths supermarkets ? dunno.

westfields ? , never in a million years ( unless they can charge $ 50 per kWhr )

anyone got half an hour spare to draft a letter "from the AEVA" to seek responses and promote the introduction of charge points ?

if we put in an effort it might be introduced a little sooner

before we do send any letters , maybe run it past other manufacturers like BEV and others and see what input they can contribute



cheers yo' all


recharge points long term view

Posted: Sun, 15 Mar 2009, 01:41
by 85turbo
there are already a few westfields with recharging facilities for electric vehicles.

i can't remember which ones, but there are a few out there.
and they don't charge (pun intended) for the service either !

Jason.

recharge points long term view

Posted: Tue, 17 Mar 2009, 16:43
by drowe67
Actually this could be useful today - my wife is opportunity charging at her friends and family when she visits them in our EV.

You know it's interesting to see how the lay-person adapts to EVs, e.g. she isn't bothered by plugging in at every chance she gets, and prefers the EV over our ICE any day.

- David

recharge points long term view

Posted: Fri, 20 Mar 2009, 04:41
by VectrixADL
Hi, I'm new to this forum, but this topic interests me a lot.

Last year, I bought an EV. Not a car, but a "maxi scooter" (Vectrix - definitely not what I would expect of an "electric scooter" :-) I use it to get to work and back every day (about 40kms round trip, in 60 and 80kph zones, with a reasonably steep hill to go over) and I'm very happy with it. The range isn't brilliant, but mostly I'm happy putting up with having to plan things more carefully than with my Honda 650, to make sure I can get home before the battery runs out (pushing it is not fun), but there are occasions when I think it would be _really_ useful to be able to recharge it somewhere during the day. I've sent an email to the facilities people where I work and they said they will look into it, but it's not going to happen anytime soon :(

Westfields with free recharge points? I guess that's not yet in Adelaide...

When I was searching for public recharge points, I found a (UK based) website that seemed to be almost exactly what I wanted - except that it is UK based: http://www.ev-network.org.uk/ It is a directory of publicly available electric vehicle recharge points through the UK, but also you can become a member, which means that you allow other members to access your home electricity point in exchange for being able to use other members' home electricity points. Is that cool or what? Okay, so the population density in Australia isn't the same as that in the UK (thank goodness :) which may make something like this more difficult, but maybe it's worth a thought...

Cheers,
MAtt.

recharge points long term view

Posted: Fri, 20 Mar 2009, 15:31
by drowe67
Hi Matt,

Yes we also tend to plan our trips - make a mental calculation of the distance, space our trips between charging. To those who don't drive an EV this may sound like a burden, but it's not really. You just adapt a little and it's natural after a while. We now consider spending money on fuel and servicing an unimaginable burden! It feels like we drive for free everywhere. Range has ceased to be a practical issue for us, even in our lead acid EV.

I think the idea of sharing each others home electricity for charging is a great idea. I am also in Adelaide and it would be great to have. We could have a small sign on the fence and an outdoor power point nearby.

Maybe we should mention it next week at the SA AEVA meeting?

- David

recharge points long term view

Posted: Fri, 20 Mar 2009, 15:49
by Mark T
There are some Public charge points in Sydney here under Public Charging.
I like vectrixADL's idea of making a list of people who are willing to have AEVA members charge at their place like the Public charge points in England

recharge points long term view

Posted: Fri, 20 Mar 2009, 16:27
by weber
Did I miss some consensus on what kind of outlet we want. A really fast charge needs 3-phase 415 Vac, but the charger is probably to big to carry around. A 32 amp single-phase socket would be nice. You can plug all smaller current ratings into it.

recharge points long term view

Posted: Fri, 20 Mar 2009, 16:43
by bga
Is there a 32A single phase outlet? Image
or aren't those the ones that look like a 3 phase plug?

My thought is:
Enough to go 25km at 250Wh/km in 2 hours of charge time, or 3kW
so
15 Amps would work and it's cheap and easy to install.


recharge points long term view

Posted: Fri, 20 Mar 2009, 16:45
by Johny
Agree. 15 Amps is reasonable. If you start imposing expensive wiring or outlets, not many will come on board.

recharge points long term view

Posted: Fri, 20 Mar 2009, 17:05
by drowe67
For most driving we get by with charging at home - even charging at our destination is usually "opportunity charging) - nice, but not really necessary to get home. For this any old 10A power point is fine. Think about it - most places you travel to, park the car, then go and do something for few hours.

As an EV driver I don't really understand the need for fast charging - perhaps it's people perceiving a need to make charging more like an ICE refill? It's more like charging your mobile phone - plug in and walk away, 10 seconds when you arrive home.

Twice I have needed an unplanned, emergency charge (i.e. when you underestimate range or have a battery go bad), then I have found some one I knew nearby, charged for 45 minutes, then driven the 5km home.

If EVs ever make it to mass production (with say 100km ranges), then most people (90% of commuters) would basically just need to charge at home each night - no big need for charging stations.

- David

recharge points long term view

Posted: Fri, 20 Mar 2009, 17:45
by weber
bga wrote: Is there a 32A single phase outlet? Image
or aren't those the ones that look like a 3 phase plug?
Weeell, I was going on what coulomb found here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_p ... ets#Type_I
But now that I go looking for these mythical beasts in manufacturers' catalogs, I only find the ones with round pins as you say.

If clipsal hasn't got it, it probably doesn't exist.
http://updates.clipsal.com/ClipsalOnlin ... 10&skip=15
My thought is:
Enough to go 25km at 250Wh/km in 2 hours of charge time, or 3kW
so 15 Amps would work and it's cheap and easy to install.
I agree. Of course we'll be grateful for whatever we get, but if we're asking, we should ask for 15 amp, and preferably like what you find in a caravan park or marina, with a dedicated RCBO (combined MCB and RCD), right beside the outlet, so if it trips we don't have to go find where it is or find someone to unlock the main switchboard and reset it.

I note that with the addition of only 3 high-frequency inductors, all industrial AC EVs already carry their own, very fast, 3-phase chargers; namely their variable frequency drives in regen mode.

recharge points long term view

Posted: Mon, 23 Mar 2009, 21:21
by djsharpe
Id vote for 15A and a 20A three phase perhaps in ratio of 4 :1. You could for example have 3 NG3s which could run from 3 ph. I have 2 NG3s which weigh 5.5 kgs each so 3 ph is no great prob. You could make a 3ph to 3 single phases so could feed your chargers from whatever is available.
DS

recharge points long term view

Posted: Sat, 23 May 2009, 23:17
by htial
I've been thinking of this a bit too...   ...Any shopping center with roof top parking could have a solar powered charging station installed...   ...And make it close to the entrance like the disabled park spots so EVs are highly visible...   ...Then non-EVers can bitch and complain about having to walk because they can't park as close anymore...

Everyone has to do their part for the environment...   ...Even if they're forced to...

Anyway. If they set up enough solar it would pay for it's self after some time anyway... ...and because it's on the roof...   ...you get that little bit of Re-Gen on the way down...

recharge points long term view

Posted: Sun, 24 May 2009, 00:32
by acmotor
Just thinking out loud here...
Charging during the day (or let's say peak grid power consumption time) goes against some of the environmental aims of EVs i.e. recharging is contributing to peak energy consumption rates. (rather than off peak)

If you have a grid connected renewable (e.g. solar) at the location (or another one) that you are recharging at, then that is best so shopping centre with solar on the roof etc is good.

I would go for 15A single phase outlets as they are more likely to be supported (provision cost is lower) than 3 phase, and the idea of high power recharge during potentially peak grid power times grates on me !


recharge points long term view

Posted: Sun, 24 May 2009, 01:52
by Squiggles
Solar panels on roof top car parks would also provide shade for the punters and their cars. Nothing wrong with that.

recharge points long term view

Posted: Sun, 24 May 2009, 05:41
by htial
Just as a side note to this...   ...Dr Karl has been saying for a few years that 50 square Km of solar panels would be enough to power all of Australia...   ...I'm sure there is more than that in roofing tiles throughout Australia...

recharge points long term view

Posted: Sun, 24 May 2009, 06:00
by Squiggles
For $1500 per hour Dr Karl will say anything.
There was a good item on Quantum recently, about polymer solar cells made with the same machines that print our plastic money. They made similar comment about covering large areas.

recharge points long term view

Posted: Sun, 24 May 2009, 14:29
by Electrocycle
htial wrote:Dr Karl has been saying for a few years that 50 square Km of solar panels would be enough to power all of Australia...



only during the day though :P

The other problem is that 50km² of solar panels adds up to a lot of money!

That's where the other types of solar collectors start to be more viable.

recharge points long term view

Posted: Sun, 24 May 2009, 15:46
by weber
htial wrote: Just as a side note to this...   ...Dr Karl has been saying for a few years that 50 square Km of solar panels would be enough to power all of Australia...   ...I'm sure there is more than that in roofing tiles throughout Australia...

No. That is a square 50 km on a side, i.e. 2500 km^2, and it originally came from CSIRO and I've checked it myself and found it quite reasonable, but I think it assumes a desert location.

Wouldn't make much difference to the area whether it was PV or solar thermal. Might make some difference to the cost, but not much difference.
[Edit: Added "not" to make "but not much"]

recharge points long term view

Posted: Sun, 24 May 2009, 17:48
by juk
Squiggles wrote:
There was a good item on Quantum recently, about polymer solar cells made with the same machines that print our plastic money. They made similar comment about covering large areas.


These lads are the main technology behind aussie polymer solar cells:
http://www.dyesol.com/

Electrocycle wrote:
only during the day though :P


What do you do with the thousands of useful automotive life depleted lithium batteries that come out of older electric cars that are still capable of holding say 5kWh of energy?

recharge points long term view

Posted: Sun, 24 May 2009, 17:55
by htial
I thought saying "50 square Km" was the same as saying "2500 km^2"...

recharge points long term view

Posted: Sun, 24 May 2009, 18:45
by weber
htial wrote: I thought saying "50 square Km" was the same as saying "2500 km^2"...

Not at all. "50 km^2" is in fact read as "fifty square kilometres" and it's best to avoid the forms "50 km square" or "50 km squared" due to their ambiguity.

See:
http://www2b.abc.net.au/science/k2/stn/ ... 65506.shtm
http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/57209.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_metre

And to be really pedantic, it's a lowercase "k". Uppercase "Km" is "kelvin metre". Image

recharge points long term view

Posted: Sun, 24 May 2009, 19:13
by Squiggles
weber wrote:
And to be really pedantic, it's a lowercase "k". Uppercase "Km" is "kelvin metre". Image


Actually that is also debatable, some schools will teach you that a lower case letter refers to negative powers of ten whereas an upper case refers to a positive power. As in the case (unintentional pun) mW = milliwatt and MW = Megawatt. Of course you then argue about whether it is relevant to any other letter....I can't think of any.
The next argument will be about acronyms :)

edit: W for watt...idiot!

recharge points long term view

Posted: Sun, 24 May 2009, 20:24
by weber
Squiggles wrote:
weber wrote:And to be really pedantic, it's a lowercase "k". Uppercase "Km" is "kelvin metre". Image


Actually that is also debatable, some schools will teach you that a lower case letter refers to negative powers of ten whereas an upper case refers to a positive power.

No. That's not debatable. Anyone who teaches uppercase "K" for *1000 is simply wrong. This stuff is all written down in an international standard ISO_31, the corresponding Australian Standard refers to that. Yes it is unfortunate that the lowercase "k" for kilo is an exception to the "uppercase for positive powers" rule. But that's how it is. As well as the symbol for the kelvin temperature unit, uppercase "K" is also used to mean *1024 in relation to bits and bytes.

recharge points long term view

Posted: Sun, 24 May 2009, 20:27
by acmotor
The debate over the area of solar panels required to power a nation is purely accademic. I personally don't think we will ever go that direction on its own !
(unless half the world joins an interconnected electrical power grid)(the sun is always shining somewhere !) Ok oK OK okImage